Watchtower Society settles sexual abuse cases to prevent victims from speaking out
Sixteen sexual abuse victims have settled nine lawsuits in which they said they were sexually abused as children by Jehovah’s Witnesses members and leaders.
Settlements were reached in late February and early March, according to court records obtained by Bill Bowen of SilentLambs.org. Now with video of press conference! Fourteen of the cases were filed in California; the others were in Oregon and Texas.
“For once, we have the church stepping up to the plate and having to settle with these victims,” said Bill Bowen, founder of SilentLambs.org. “To me, it’s a vindication for the abuse survivors.”
Jehovah’s Witnesses Silentlambs Press Conference on Channel 4
(article continues below)
Mario Moreno, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ associate general counsel, confirmed that nine lawsuits involving a total of 16 plaintiffs had been settled. When asked the total amount of the settlements, he said, “I’m not able to comment on any of the specifics,” citing “a confidentiality agreement.”
Bowen called that agreement a “bittersweet” outcome. “Even though they’re vindicated and they’re going to be compensated … they can’t tell anybody about it,” he said. Even so, Bowen considered this a significant legal victory for the plaintiffs. “It’s the largest group of people that they have settled with – as far as child abuse is concerned – at one time,” he said. Moreno would only say that “it certainly is unusual for us to have a number of cases.”
In a brief statement, the religious body said: “We are pleased to see this matter resolved.” The statement “regarding January-February 2007 settlement of child abuse cases” cites the New Testament book of Romans about hating “what is wicked” and says child abuse falls in that category.
“As an organization, we will continually strive to educate families and congregations with sound Scriptural teachings that they can use to protect their children from child molesters,” the statement said. “And we will continue to do our utmost to protect children from this horrible crime and sin.”
SilentLambs.org has criticized the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ policy on abuse. If the accused denies the charge, two credible witnesses are required to establish guilt due to literal application of such Bible verses as Deuteronomy 19:15 (”only on the evidence of two witnesses, or of three witnesses, shall a charge be sustained”). If two witnesses are lacking, the accused is deemed innocent, charges remain confidential and parents who warn others are subject to disfellowshipping for slander.
Since establishing SilentLambs.org in 2001, Bowen says about 7,000 people who claim they were abused have contacted his support group.
Sources:
SilentLambs.org
Beliefnet
Associated Press
To Fair,
Oh…it only happens in China and the middle east. Interesting…so it doesn’t happen in places like the congregation in Norway Upper Michigan. And it must have been a dream when my sister came forward against her abuser and was called a liar because of the “two witness” rule (sadly I had repressed the memories of the abuse until years later but that still would have only made 1 witness). Gee, thank you for making that clear now. Now if they followed “all the laws of the land” like they preach then the elders (other than the father of the abuser) would have referred the matter to the local police for a thorough investigation instead of remaining silent and according to the law becoming party to the abuse itself. Then maybe he would have been stopped and wouldn’t have continued to abuse children and women years later.
ok yo solo no voy a decir nada esto es asi o crees o no es ahi donde rradica la diferencia de cerrrar tus ojos y vivir dentro de adaptarse en este mundo ojala yo no ubiera entrado a esta pagina que divulga lo que divulga y para que quien sabe y no me interesa quisiera acer lo que4 tengo que acer en ves de estar viendo todo este tipo detonterias que si ace que si no ace amemonos unos a otros dijo el señor jesucristo dios los vendiga a todos solo al señor le pertenece el juicio
to the jehovah’s witless Fair:
ok bro now instead of believing non-JW articles I’ll believe watchtower.
I see that you ain’t an elder otherwise you’d've known the real paedophile policy by the watchtower. Their policy is criminal, but who cares right?
I see that you intelligence is supreme I feel like kneeling down and worship you for your astonishing display of wisdom… you don’t know that the wikipedia article is 100% of watchtower make, do you? I guessed as much.
Enjoy your lovey-dovey affiliation with the watchtower. Did it sound sweet or bitter?
So much bitterness in the comments. Instead of believing an article written by a who knows where from journalist, not disclosing dates or details of the trials, the ambiguity posted could definitely provoke critical comments.
Instead, google the real trials where JW”s were involved. From what I found, they consstently win at least 90% of false accusations – this speaks the message – they are innocent. In the 10% of the cases they lose are middle eastern or chinese cases where they are not allowed to preach by law.
I assure you that no criminal is consealed with secrecy. Offenders are excommunicated immediatley, and the congregations remain ‘clean’ of crime, etc. Markcus and alike would be disfellowshipped for swearing for example. The true JW’s who follow the doctrine and live by the Bible deserve admiration. If everyone was like them, the world would be so much closer to paradise.
And, hey, why don’t you go and do some homework as to what they believe in – plenty untainted views are available on websited describing world religions.
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Jwitness.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_witness
and lots more
Hi Markus,
nice to hear you back. I would like to add that your last paragraph does make sense in relation to both social constructivist and neurobiological findings, these last in terms of actual changes in neuronal connections and interconnection deriving from the process of learning.
Dear cheopswaskhufu,
I’m not sure if I read you correctly here as your comment is rather ambiguous.
We choose to live our lives as we see fit, generally we are good folk but for the exception of the occasional murderer and or rapist which has to be said is out of our control, most of us average citizens have a pretty clear conscience.
Along come along the preterits, your Jehovah’s Witness or your Seventh Day Adventist or Mormon even your latter day Jesus saints etc or other guilt burdening folk.
Their favourite quotes are from Revelation and the gospels: Massive earthquakes, pestilence, famine and lawlessness shall abound on the Earth, and then the end will come. The Bible says it, we believe it and therefore pray to out merciful God for forgiveness and the ultimate redemption. The time of the end is near folks, better start praying and giving hard earned cash to the good folk telling us about these things. Jeez talk about cashing in on circumstances.
If you THINK about it, which most bible belt fundies do not, give this a thumb suck:
There has always been over the years millions of people starving, some countries in Africa have been at some time harder hit than others. Starvation has always been something our merciful God has brushed aside, for if this was the sign of the end it should have happened a very long time ago.
Pestilence, especially with the advent of AIDS, comes into the forefront. Only a century or two ago the black plague wiped out one third of all people living in Europe or the known world as it was then, still no end of the world as foretold by the prophets.
Earthquakes: think of San Francisco, Mexico City, Krakatoa, to mention a few, where is the end? still waiting for a bigger one for the end is still imminent.
Nation will rise against nation, we already saw this in WW1+WW2, that was 62 years ago pretty much a generation in anybody’s terms. I remember some JW elder telling me there are more conflicts in the world today (14 years ago) than ever experienced by mankind before; bloody liar he was, then and most likely still is.
Crime is at it’s worst ever. Probably true but what do you expect when the human population is at it’s highest ever, did you really think it would come down?
I wish good intelligent folk would look back, and realise
that most of us were born into a religious culture and it
is in itself was born of the greedy culture of mankind, but seeing as it was embedded into our heads from an early age, it cannot do other than stick, one cannot really blame us for a stupidity that runs in our minds, placed there by our parents which was placed there by their parents and so on.
Cheers.
Markus
sorry guys for the ‘canyon effect’ as you can see had forgotten to sign. tried to terminate the forwarding and then sent it again with my name. it seems it had already gotten thru the system and posted.
to cheopswaskhufu,
you state:
1) “those who sincerly strive to lead a Godly life Jehovah’s Wittness or otherwise, tend to be more righteous and humble than those on the “outside” as they may put it.”
and you state also:
2) “if one looked carefully, and not through a negative distorted lens”
Two worthless quotes froms a person whose education and IQ make it pointless any further reply than this one.
However from my experience as a clinician I see that sometimes pathological daydreamers of such a caliber do some times live better lives than most people who are endowed of some degree of awareness and self-consciousness. Why they live better?
Because they pipe-dream their lives away.
to cheopswaskhufu,
you state:
1) “those who sincerly strive to lead a Godly life Jehovah’s Wittness or otherwise, tend to be more righteous and humble than those on the “outside” as they may put it.”
and you state also:
2) “if one looked carefully, and not through a negative distorted lens”
Two worthless quotes froms a person whose education and IQ make it pointless any further reply than this one.
However from my experience as a clinician I see that sometimes pathological daydreamers of such a caliber do some times live better lives than most people who are endowed of some degree of awareness and self-consciousness. Why they live better?
Because they pipe-dream their lives away.
Alot of hatred disguised as concern.
And bitterness.
Humans are flawed.
Most religions recognize this and preach mercy and forgiveness as far as is possible.
The way of the world is to be vindictive.
Anyway, if one looked carefully, and not through a negative distorted lens, they would see that those who sincerly strive to lead a Godly life Jehovah’s Wittness or otherwise, tend to be more righteous and humble than those on the “outside” as they may put it.
to Crack Man-Whore
I can see that you understand the ‘ = ‘ symbol. So you must have graduated from kinder to garten.
Well done
???????………….
??????????????????,
FUK U!!!! I AM NOT THAT PR!CK JDUB!!!!
an jdub, blow it out yo azzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
JDUB = Crack Man-Whore
Crack Man-Whore = JDUB
?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you suk 2, JDUB. fuk u
To Crack Man-whore,
You have as much intelligence and aspirations as a public telephone vandalist, no intellect whatsoever. Condom advertisements will go a long way when simple examples of your clever aspirations are known. It is a pity you father did not use a condom, probably he was as stupid as you, and the result is we have to put up your inherent stupidity which is a shame because modern science, besides the use of birth control has no cure for your condition.
Kind regards,
Markus
never as degenerate as being a witness of jehovah….
cheers
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Fuk this piece of shyt website…and fuk u 2, otto.
to the freak above,
whatever pal, you’re in a tad worse predicament than I thought.
My diagnosis then was correct: you belong to a freak-show.
I answered because as a mental clinician I have the duty to help those in need.
But I am terminating your therapy as of now. I’m sorry. I’ll have to defer you to one said freak-shows.
If you have trouble prancing your way to the nearest freak-show call 911.
Any post you’ll send to my person it’s going to be yet another of a long and never-ending howling at the moon.
Good luck.
GTFO, mo-fo, I posted that shyt. I saw yo tricked up azz from a mile a wayz, and I can already tell youz a puzzy. Youz toooooo mother fukin ez to piss off, oto. Itz goins to be a blast spammin you, bi-atch!
And no, I ain’t JDUB, so get that shyt outz yo mind. No idea who that fuker iz.
peace
To All,
Just to qualify that the above comment (ID: 247311, July 18 2007, 9:42 pm)
is not mine but -presumably- by the ‘JDUB’ self-labeled freak.
Do forgive ‘it’.
Good point(s) Otto.
It is ironic that the very matters which the governingbody of Jehovah’s Witnesses knew was happening: sexual assult, rape, and sodomy of little ones yet, they choose to conceal it in secrecy is what has brought them into the Judical arena is the very thing which the Judge of this Court approved between the victims represented by Gregory S. Love and Kimberlee D. Norris* and the Watchtowers legal representatives namely, to conceal the range of payouts and attorney fees or take.
It makes me wonder if this Judge and Love&Norris are not just as morally corrupt as the Watchtower’s council and it’s governingbody of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
* http://www.lovenorrisattorneys.com/accomplish.html
Que? Mi no speak faggotry.
gobelly-goop.
dear crack man-whore,
here nobody’s interested in yours and anybody else’s lack of self-esteem.
Hope you won’t post vulgar comments like the above one (and change nick as well).
Please do not answer to this comment of mine.
You make a good point(s). I will give the Gov. (Rick Perry) the 1st try and see what kinda response is given. I would guess that he dosen’t even know who the law firm of Love in Norris is. http://www.governor.state.tx.us/
As for the two witness rule mentioned in the starting article, what a joke of an interpretation where the Pharisees resorted to the two witness rule when responding to what Jesus said about himself at
John 8:13 “…You bear witness about yourself, your witness is not true…”
Although, Jesus in quoting the law excluded himself from it nevertheless, stated in no uncertain terms that he could bear witness about himself and be within the purview of their law which the Pharisees then, did not dispute.
John 8:17, 18 “…Also in Your own law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ I am one that bears witness about myself
You make a good point(s). I will give the Gov. (Rick Perry) the 1st try and see what kinda response is given. I would guess that he dosen’t even know who the law firm of Love in Norris is. http://www.governor.state.tx.us/
As for the two witness rule mentioned in the starting article, what a joke of an interpretation where the Pharisees resorted to the two witness rule when responding to what Jesus said about himself at
John 8:13 “…You bear witness about yourself, your witness is not true…”
Although, Jesus in quoting the law excluded himself from it nevertheless, stated in no uncertain terms that he could bear witness about himself and be within the purview of their law which the Pharisees then, did not dispute.
John 8:17, 18 “…Also in Your own law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ I am one that bears witness about myself
for crack man-whore,
not for your own benefit (your manners are as funny as uncouth) or cos it’s my habit that of picking up challenges but for the benefit of others (joeauheuaovuueah’s witlesses included) that might be visiting this site.
So dear crack man-whore you aren’t but another juohaveh’s witless, but not an elder, neither privy to the content of the ‘pay attention’ book by the Towers of All Terrors (aka Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger)
Do enjoy the criminal, illegal, perverse, insane as well as illuminating directive by said terrorists/taliban who instead of directing elders to run to the police in case of sexual abuse (paedophilia, incest, etc) they direct to turn to a publishing company’s (watchtower) attorney.
(After enjoying the screenshot please do post comments but do so intelligently, don’t make me call you the names you would deserve by uttering moronic replies).
page 93 of the ‘pay attention’ book blasphemes as follows:
“Por·nei´a” involves immoral use of the genitals of at least
one human ( whether in a natural or a perverted way ), and
there must have been another party to the immorality–a
human of either sex or a beast; willing participation incurs
guilt and requires judicial action. It is not a casual touch-
ing of the sex organs between persons but involves the
manipulation of the genitals. (w83 6/1 pp. 23-6; w83
3/15 pp. 30-1)
It includes oral and anal sex or mutual masturbation
between persons not married to each other, homosexu-
ality, lesbianism, fornication, adultery, incest, and bes-
tiality. (Lev. 20:10, 13, 15, 16; Rom. 1:24, 26, 27, 32;
1 Cor. 6:9, 10)
Also included are sexual abuse of children, including
practices involving a catamite (a boy kept for purposes
of sexual perversion). (Deut. 23:17, 18, Ref.: Bi., ftns.)
Victims of sexual abuse need to be treated with
extreme thoughtfulness and kindness. Elders should
always do what they reasonably can to protect
children from further abuse;
follow the Society’s directives on such matters. (g85 1/22 p.
UNIT 5 (1 )
93
Ok JDUB, we’re friends again
And yes, I do prefer underage girls.
Thank you,
Otto
Otto,
I do not believe you. Show me the screen shot of that book, ‘pay attention’. If you don’t, I know you a fraud.
to Mygrandmaker,
hi, I agree that figures should be made available to the public. The ‘par condicio’ should be the guiding principle especially for trials done in the same country,
Perhaps you should look up the silentlambs site.
Abuse cases keep coming out, but I think here it’s the government that should really look into this matter not after but prior to happening.
Prevention in this case does not exist. Everybody knows of the pro-paedophile laws of the Towers of All Terrors as outlined in their to-the-body of elders-only secret letters, not to mention the infamous ‘pay attention’ book where it is specifically directed for the elders to contact the watchtower’s lawyers in paedophile cases but not to run to the police and drag all their executives in court. Yet this horrific crime is shamelessly allowed by the Governement, by all so-called civilized western governments not only here in the US.
.
As a matter of public interest i think settlemet amounts should be revealed. The chatholics recently settled for at least 1.3 mil per plantiff and the news media reported that the over all settlement was 100 mil more giving each plaintiff an up tick in the actual amount and the mormon’s are not being sucessful in a 45 mil punitive sought by one plaintiff.
The point is that these victims are getting money and nothing less should be expected from the watchtower.
I think if their is a disparite settlement amounts between what the Watchtower and what these other religions are paying out then the law firm representing these watchtower victims need to voluteer some settlement numbers or be brought to the attention of the proper authoritys.
Any settlement numbers out their? And the name of the law firm would be appriciated or attorneys of.
mygrandmaker@yahoo.com
.
How can their every word be right if they keep changing their doctrine? 5 different predictions on the end of the world!!! You can’t drink alcohol. Now you can. Worship Jesus. No, never mind. Celebrate your birthday. No, don’t do that either. Trust us for all truth, even though we make mistakes, and use a bible version that no bible scholar finds credible. Trust our understanding of the bible even though the leaders/overseers have only a cursory understanding of the original languages. You must believe all we teach and follow it or you will lose your friends and family.
You will know them by their fruits.
Mi pene es duro.
Ok, then if it is a true relegion, then you can show one picture of a kingdom hall that is older than 100 year or one president before Pastor Russell. I rest my case.
Otto,
Pardon me, kind sir, but I was neither offended nor hurt by your comments. On the contrary, I was quite amused at your witty remarks regarding the WTS. That was quite a good little mix of words, that Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger. I must say good show, old chap! However, I am immensely surprised you came up with something so catchy. I just hope you didn’t lose an inordinate amount of sleep over that one. That would be a pity.
I do hope your little tiff with me will blow over. I do enjoy our banters, and would duly miss your company. I would hope you would reconsider.
PS By the way, my mother sends her regards once again. The stallion arrived late last for a splendid rendezvous. He had apparently come from your father’s home, and was a bit famished and exhausted. Mother saw to him, however, and mended his sores and bruises. He rested quite nicely last night. Please be a dear, and let your father know he is safe.
PPS I also noted that you did not specify if you prefer under-age girls. Should I take this withholding of information as an affirmation? If so, duly noted.
Cheers,
JDUB
to JDUB,
I see that you ain’t a good sport by sounding offensive&hurt. Too bad. You had it coming, but since you don’t get wisecracks nor you understand plain English, do not waste your time posting comments for me.
So long.
PS you’re writing style sucks.
Otto,
Thank you for the informative dissertation regarding your illicit persuasions. I cannot help but notice your emphasis of the “boy” part of my solicitation. Does this in fact imply that you enjoy the cyber-world company of underage girls?
Also, thank you for the kind words regarding my mother. She wanted me to send you her regards, and to thank your mother and father for sending the stallion her way. They apparently enjoyed his company too. Your father especially, as dictated by the stallions anal cavity being expanded beyond words.
Cheers,
JDUB
to JDUB,
Thank you JDUB, but I usually don’t mess with very, very normal and well-adjusted individuals like you.
Besides, I don’t get my kicks out of cyber-sex with underage boys. If I were into anything resembling un-orthodox sex I’d rather have remained a juoehoieviah’s witless where you can really enjoy being buggered 24/7 by the drooling ulama making up the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger.
Finally, I’m neither sexy nor a stallion…maybe you’re a little confused…the sexy stallion is the one impaling your mother.
Otto,
Do you participate in cyber-sex with underage boys? I am said underage boy, and would like to have sex with you. Please send me your email, you sexy stallion
JDUB
Dear Governing Body of the Watch Tower Society, Inc.,
I’m sorry I can’t give you the details concerning the automata ‘that’ wrote the the above insightful comment. But I known that, God willing, it (note the pronoun) too will be soon sucked up into your organizational net.
What a privilege serving the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger!
another pitiful case of a who-knows-to what-extent human-looking automata.
No wonder religions have money to burn.
As long as Satanas exist, child molestation will continue. Satanas is the Grandest molester, he molested Adam and Eve
The catholics and the rest of the churches were more rotten than this sect. The order of this world is the mother of all rotten and the father of all rotten is Satanas, his rotten sons and daughters is you and me unless we resist this rotten inclination in us.
i think your hatred is unreasonable. you hate God, Jesus, JW but to Satan…Oh, i think you believe Satanas did not exist. Think again, there is Church of Satan, and you can read the book “Conversation With God” writen by Satanas himself. Your hatred must be directed to Satanas-the grand criminal and the great manipulator of sexual desire, the ultimate hater of God and of Christ and to his follower.
to Markus,
I’d like to elaborate and add some more info/analysis to your comment (which I totally agree with), especially with regard to the lies and perversion we find uncensored in the good ‘holy’ books.
Also, I’d like to discuss -since we are in this section of the site- whether children can be abused not only thru criminal sex but also thru wrong ideologies larded with lies and perversion such as those any average IQ can find at will in almost every page of the bible.
Unfortunatley right now I’m too busy but I’m looking forward to getting back.
To Mark, what did you say your religion is again? Hope you’ll answer my last posting, thanks.
Well folk, that’s it for now…wish ya all a great weekend.
to Mark,
Thank you for your reply.
I really hope I haven’t -as you put it- used
“old fashioned dirty tactics like personal attacks or manipulative language is used, at least as a general rule” that you have “perceived as beneath me” (your quote above).
If yes, could you be so kind as to give me at least a couple of such examples?
A dialog to me in fact, means -among the others- a way to make us better people and deepen understanding among individuals.
In the meantime I’d suggest you reading the ‘Bible Quotes’ section of this site. Try to analyze those verses in terms of their implications with regard to their impact on the balance of power across social classes, within the family structure and among Israel’s neighboring nations. Not to mention the horror derived form such ideologies in every aspect of those people’s life. Last but not least see the impact upon life, life expectancy and health standards stemming from a total silence with regard to education, school, and emphasis on scientific research, soemthing this that a perfect God wouldn’t have failed to notice, right?
Do you know that it is right in the bible the ideology according to which some people and countries do not have the right to exist? Does ethnic cleansing ring a bell?
If you can’t find any such verse (which I doubt cos it’s very easy) I’ll tell you.
Do you know that (how ironic) it’s the old testament the very cradle of anti-semitism? (for this one you’ll have to find the verse by yourself).
Then I might show you a few more examples where such doctrines are reinforced in the new testament and with a vengeance at that. So you might eventually come to reflect on your own words I quote below:
“To me it seems unreasonable to blame the writers of the bible for what later generations made of their thoughts, and how their text were used, but let’s leave the bible out of it for the moment”.
Have a wonderful day.
PS Markus in several sections of this sites has thoroughly and extensively discussed the validity of the bible in historical terms with an eye on the implications deriving from the wilful misrepresentation of God, his assumed values and moral standards.
Hi Otto,
As to those verses, that is really simple: from your paraphrase I simply did not make any link to any scripture, because I did not recognise it. As you posted the verses, I knew what you you referred to.
Now, I am glad you say you see a dialog as exchange of views. What is, the the purpose of any such exchange? To me, it is to understand the other person better, and to perhaps see something I have not seen before, or see something from a different angle. As to when a dialog stops, that also is simple: it stops whenever one or the other chooses to. I usually discontinue a dialog with someone if he tries to preach at me or in some other way presumes that he has the right to direct my thinking. I do not like the approach to a dialog that starts with the assumption that someone has to be convinced absolutely about something or that a dialog is some sort of contest to be won. I certainly draw a discussion to a close when I find that old fashioned dirty tactics like personal attacks or manipulative language is used, at least as a general rule.
Normally I would not have engaged into a dialog with Mr Clark for the reasons outlined, nor with the irrate Otto of the last few posts or so. I do, however, have developed some respect for you because of earlier posts.
No Otto, I was not trying in any way attacking you as a person, but I am concerned as to the changes in style of arguing. When I made those comparisons you took exception to, I did so because you current discussion gives this impression, at least to me, and I know for a fact that you can and have put points across highly effectively without resorting to such tactics. Therefore I perceive them as beneath you.
So far I am quite clear as to what you do NOT agree with and what have serious issues with, but you seem to be fairly quiet about what you DO hold to be true. There are hints here and there, but they are usually drowned out by other things. It is those things that interest me, and perhaps, if you want, we can talk about that? I know you have a deep aversion to organised religion in general, and you see the bible as a means to support such organised religion. To me it seems unreasonable to blame the writers of the bible for what later generations made of their thoughts, and how their text were used, but let’s leave the bible out of it for the moment.
I was surprised to read that you do not describe yourself as an atheist. This area I would very much like to hear more about. If you do not see yourself as an atheist, there really only three other possibilties, either you are a theist or an agnostic, or something in between. Sorry, I don’t want to put you into any particular box, but you intrigue me and I would like to find out more.
Mark
To Otto and Mark,
Nice discussion it must be said.
If I can add my own 2 bits worth, pretty dumb statement one would think ’cause here it comes anyway.
It is almost an impossible task to tell anyone their belief is wrong and gain a following. Christians believe Muslims are wrong and visa versa, both believe the Jews have almost got it right but lost the plot somewhere, and the Jews think all other religions are crazy.
My own view is that all religion is an easy way out for humans that cannot accept death as a logical end and cling onto the hope of a life hereafter, most pay money
to thieves all their lives for this reassurance.
Sorry folks this view is, and never was an on the spur of the moment thumbsuck, it has come from 14 years of dedicated research on a subject which I find extremely interesting.
I find it amazing that religionists always poo poo our mortal attempts to explain our existence, but they unwittingly do exactly the same, they claim our creation by a superior being is quite normal, but are quick to say God was always there and always will be, the ludicrous part of this is we are all expected to throw our simple logic out of the window and suddenly believe.
My bottom line is: believe what ever you want to folks,
if it makes you happy that’s great, but for humankind’s sake do not bring misery on others in the name of your particular God.
Remember we were in no discomfort before we were born, how bad can it be to go back there.
Cheers,
Markus
to Mark/anonymous,
Hi Mark, a dialog is when 2 people at least have an exchange of info, ideas, etc. A dialog doesn’t stop being such the moment it takes a turn you don’t like.
I see that though 3 minutes ago you didn’t know the existence of those verses (Matthew and Luke’s) you already got a sure interpretation. Whatever. But no matter you try to rationalize about their meaning the reality remains that according to jesus’ words in Revelation (and scores of other ones by his inspired writers), all those who do not wish jesus to reign over them will have to be thrown in the lake of fire together with Satan and the Beast.
You tell me that my interpretation of Matthew and Luke’s verses is not accurate? You are wrong. Christianity and the bible promise hell and everlasting destruction for ALL those you beg to differ to such insane Al Qaeda-like theocracy. So Matthew and Luke’s that I quoted are to be taken quite literally. Try to read the whole bible not just single chapters. I’m not saying I believe in this, no, it’s all BS in order to control the masses.
And physical elimination of the enemy on ideological grounds is the most infamous and blaspheme of WANTON VIOLENCE. YES, JESUS LIKE HIS FATHER yhwh uses a little love speech to sugar-coat the violent doom of their real or imagined opposers.
Also again it’s not good to forget the evil evil men did like Hitler or Caligula. On the contrary. I’m not a Jew but if I were I wouldn’t have liked you telling me to quickly forget their deeds. We must not forget in order to honor the victims and avoid that history repeats itself.
We must keep talking about the evil evil men did and do be dead or alive.
So please, don’t lecture me about how the Nazi rose to power or got their anti-Jew message across…and by the way you can’t reduce/sum up such an issue in a single statement…
I have clear ideas about all this, yet you accuse me of being dogmatic like the watchtower&the nazi (this to me is the ultimate abuse to my person, especially being likened to the watchtower) that sees everthing in black and white.
Please rest assured that there are many things and important at that, that to me have lots, lots of grey areas (eg the identity of God, meaning of life, etc).
I’m sorry if you interpreted all this as something resembling propaganda.
True, I might be in the ‘no mincing words’ mood, but I’ve never been into catering to people’s tastes. Especially here where you gotta be concise and right to the point.
God bless you.