Video of a Jehovah’s Witness elder 'twisting' the Truth in Court
In this video an elder states that disfellowshipping is a congregational matter and not a family matter and that Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t use the word ‘shunning’.
He talks positively about disfellowshipping saying that “for every six or ten people you bring on here that have bad experiences [with disfellowshipping] I can bring a hundred people that have been disfellowshipped … who will say it is the best thing that happened in their life”. Watch the video!
Twisting the truth is not considered as lying by Jehovah’s Witnesses according to their literature:
“While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it.” -Aid to Bible Understanding, pages 1060-1061
Some details about this trial:
Custody Case 1997-2005 USA
“Mr. M shall not directly or indirectly expose or allow the children to be exposed to shunning of their mother, or to engage in any family contacts or religious activities that directly or indirectly suggest or expose them to teachings, scriptural interpretations or declarations that Mrs. M is anything less than a good and honorable person and fully worthy of designated, implied, inferred, promised, reserved, assumed, or otherwise available, obtainable or receivable, so called spiritual blessings or rewards which might be obtained or available to faithful religious persons, including faithful members of the JW church. This shall include his exposure of the children to family members, church teachers, preachers, or other advocates of the JW church or to any condemning doctrines or activities. Mr. M shall not have, suggest or cause any religious communications with the children, advise them regarding religion or direct or advise them regarding what their personal conduct or religious activities should be, or monitor their activities to determine if they are in compliance with his religious beliefs, while they are with Mrs. M.”
“The court believes this conduct negatively affecting the children’s relationship with their mother should stop or be condemned. This church judgementalism, coupled with the malicious use of false accusations against their mother and her husband by their father, has nearly frightened these children away from their mother and her husband even though she is a sincere caring mother. Recognizing the children’s concerns and fears, the Court ordered that Mr. M be granted custody of the children, at least for the past year. This was granted notwithstanding the terrible wrongs he has perpetrated against his ex-wife and her husband. (Defendant) is treated as spiritually dead by the JW church and the extended family who are members. This ridiculous concept of people judging others appears to be a strong part of the religious judgementalistic doctrine and is apparently required of the members of the church.”
Please pick the posting where I was screaming?
I don’t recall such action, however many people come to the same conclusion regarding the JW clan when they see them standing on the literal street corner. The real dilemma experienced by most JW’s is they simply can’t fathom other reasoning other than the propaganda dogmatically enforced by the Watchtower.
By the way I am actively engaged in many arenas of discipline & life, not stuck in the one-dimensional world as projected by the Watchtower. Are you assuming you know me by the way?
Please do not pretend to know me as I am not one of those people in your faith that constantly pays lip service to ideologies, however doesn’t actually get involved. That’s definitely not me, and it would be best not to try and compare what contributions I make to life compared to the average JW.
I remember, because I was there.
Thank you.
And I suppose that abusing children (see http://www.silentlambs.org ) ISN’T abusive?
Update: STILL not one prophesy has come true. They claimed that they were about to be delivered at the assembly in the summer of 2006. They resolved effectively to ban entertainment in light of how “close” we are (were). They were going to start the Great Tribulation with the False Religion tract last October. We know that didn’t work. Then in 2007, they claimed that Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled. And they told people to push especially hard on the Memorial this year, implying that the opportunity to praise Jehovah would be lost forever after that.
Then came the bombshell. Within 2 weeks, they reveal that they are going to start splitting the Watchtower magazines. One issue will come out the first of the month and be distributed to the public (so much for Matthew 24:14 being fulfilled). The other will be private, and will have all the study articles and doctrinal matters and come out on the 15th. This starts in 2008! After spending all that time setting up for Armageddon in 2007, they have plans to set up this for 2008.
I think this is a warning to leave before then. Once this happens, the public will no longer be able to see the magazines, and so they will no longer be criticized. And that means whatever wacky new rules they come up with, no one will be able to see them until they are stuck there. I am warning you: 2008 is shaping up to be a miserable year for Jehovah’s Witnesses!
See http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/129215/1.ashx for details about the new magazines and http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/115757/1.ashx on the resolution where entertainment was banned. Fair warning: that is hidden very well, and you might not even realize what is going on. And neither will the Witnesses until the first of the rules expounding on it actually hit.
Or so they appear. That’s because they are trying to put on a front to get people to join a cult. And then when people do join, they are bound by so many rules that freedom is destroyed. The rules are enforced by houndings, and often they will “mark” a person for not keeping the rules. And if they still don’t repent, they get disfellowshipped and others cannot even greet them.
Also, they will put quotas on field service times and placements. They deliberately don’t have these in print, because they are never satisfied. No matter how much you do, they are going to want more and more.
Singles, beware! If they think they can keep you single, they will. The elders will spread lies and requests for the opposite sex to reject you throughout the whole circuit, and the victim will never know what’s going on until it’s too late. Then they say it’s OK because the person can do more than themselves plus kids–a blatant lie. And if you are lucky enough to be married, they will stagnate your life with never-ending demands for ever-more time and money, so that the love in the marriage will get killed. And be thankful you are not in an abusive marriage because they will trap you in it.
I don’t call any of this “nice”.
I was disfellowshipped 13 years ago when I was 18. At that age you don’t know anything. I was studying with an elder and I feel now that he pushed me into getting baptized when I was eighteen. I was just a kid back then and didn’t realize the consequences that would happen if I ever came out. Yes, I was disfellowshipped for being gay. I did not choose this lifestyle and always new from a young age that I was gay. But, I thought that getting baptized would wash away my “sins”. Well, that didn’t work.
Shortly after I was disfellowhipped about a week later, I was asked to leave the house. I had no money, no anything. I found the local PFLAG and they helped me find a room to rent. I am very thankful to them in my time of need.
I lost my Stepfather, Mother, 2 Sisters and a brother. I was shunned for many, many years! I did drugs for many years and hit rock bottom. Who was there for me? Definately not my family. Eventually, I quit doing drugs and have been sober for 10 years.
Eventually, my mother came around and now talks to me, my halfbrother and halfsister now talk to me and they do not attend the kingdom hall because they saw all this go on and realized that the JW are not loving. My other sister to this day only says hello if we see each other around town, but there is no association!! That’s fine with me. It’s her loss. My stepfather was an elder and now is not anymore because he lost control of his family. To this day he doesn’t acknowledge me.
The JW are people that you do not want to mess with! If I had the chance to do it all over again, I would stay clear of these people! They definately do not practice what they preach! God is love! He made all of us. Some this way, some that way. But, humans should not judge! Only God knows the real answers!
Rus Virgil ,
Seeing as you and every Jehovah’s Witness these last two centuries have been proclaiming Armageddon or the end of the world ever since your religion started don’t you think it’s about time you start to think using your own brain that you have some been allocated?
A good thing indeed your Society has decided to stop embarrassing itself by setting dates, however they still continue with the same old message: ‘the end is so near it’s unbelievable’. Let me give you my viewpoint of ‘unbelievable’: 6.6 million people like yourself all believing in Joe Hover as the supreme being whence all this deity has done is make you look like a bunch of fools, and incredibly you carry on regardless, what will it take for you to allow yourself some rudimentary human thinking.
What did Mathew say in the book accounted to him say? Truly I say to YOU, THIS generation will not pass until these things occur. Who, in all honesty do you think Jesus was referring to? A generation somewhere thousands of years in the future? Only a weird conscripter could dream this up. Why would Paul run around proclaiming to the folk THEN living, to not to get married, and to not have children, if the end was coming only centuries later? Does the seven headed beast refer to Babylon the great as the religions of today? Perhaps, but it could also be referring to a bad dream the writer of Revelation had, or anything else if you fantasize about it. If I had a dream like this I would not think about preaching to a sane crowd that this is how the end will happen, I would be put away in a straight jacket, what a pity the writer’s comrades had the same agenda as the writer, which was to offer people hope, and scare them at the same time, which is the same theme throughout the Bible: kiss my ass or die like a worthless dog or animal as was so cruelly burnt on an alter so your deity could complete his orgasm.
It is up to you, one can spend their whole life selling magazines for your organization, thinking they are oh so peachy, or get real and start questioning what the possibilities are of a non profit organization now being worth $US billions.
Fact is your organization is rich like crazy is because 6,6 million of you sell/buy magazines like crazy.
For anyone who has to buy ones own redemption by being told how to behave, it is indeed in itself is a repugnancy guided by greedy ignorance. The gospels never ever asked for any monies, however trivial. Sadly you think asking a few cents for your magazines is OK, you have not even a clue, every penny goes to the WTS . You are a the real gullible one and don’t you just love it.
Markus
Now I have to ask, could not the above comment have been dated at any timeperiod for at least the last 100 years?
So what’s different now?
Dear friends , (Psalm 119:63)
Time has come for Jehovah to work .Ps.119:126.
His work (in this days) is to send His prophet Elijah for , “to turn the heart of the fathers to the childrens , and the heart of the children to their fathers”. Malachi 4:5,6.
JEHOVAH God has sent one of His elected ones to do the work “in the spirit and the power of Elijah” Luke 1:17 .
Also , Elijah’s work is to “restore all things”. Matt.17:11.
His message means the “tidings out of the east and out of the north” that shall trouble the king of the north (man of lawlessnes) ! Daniel 11:44.
His message contains the understanding given through the Spirit of the truth (John 16:13) about the Beast and its “man number” 666 (Rev.13:18) !
All these you will find on the site http://www.geocities.com/sas_gavril
and http://www.grupcaleasfanta.ro
See also :Jeremiah 51:9 Zeccariah 2:7 ; 8:1-8 Micah 4:6,7 Amos 3:7
Hosea 4:6 ; 6:1-3,6 ; 14:1-9 2John 1:9 Rev.10:5-7,11 ; 14:3 ; 15:2,3 ; 22:10-15 !!!
Let Jehovah bless all of you that fear HIM !
Sincerely , Rus Virgil from Romania .
Whatever you do, avoid divorce!
Be nice to her and the kids no screaming, arguements etc. Be tolerant of her religion .I know it sounds hard and goes contrary to your inner feelings about the religion but you must remain calm, easygoing, mild tempered etc. at the same time let it be known that you do not believe in many doctrines of her religion .
again,calmly. If you fight the religion she will interpret it as fighting her. Resist the urge to throw out the baby with the bathwater.Not all JW doctrine is bad. They do speak the truth in much of what they teach.(for example:no drugs,no adultery,no fornication etc). It is precisely this message of moral purity that causes so many to join and then become captive to the negative aspects of the cult. Even though the religion causes problems in many families ,it doesn’t have to in yours. I’ll give you an example: I grew up JW . Mother was baptized, father opposed. He constantly fought with mom and us kids about the religion.This made us all pull closer to the religion as we considered him to be a tool of satan.In time I got sick of the religion and the way it was affecting me and stopped going.I joined with my father in his rants against the religion. That made the family situation worse.I was baptized so I knew that if I got disfellowshipped my mother wouldn’t speak to me and It would cause even further division . So I was careful not to get disfellowshipped.Besides, I believed in the moral aspects of what I had been taught not only by my mother but by my father as well.I still do and I love them both.Even though I had a bitterness for the organization I resisted the urge to disassociate myself as that would have had the same consequences as a disfellowshipping. I finally wised up and cooled down.I no longer have any bitterness toward anyone in the organization and view it all as a learning experience.This change of attitude of both my father and i has had a profound change on my mother.She hasn’t made a meeting in over half a year and is more down to earth.Things are so peaceful now.Your wife may in time leave the religion .If she does, let her make that decision herself,don’t push her.Even if she never makes a full break with the religion,she will most likely lose her fanaticism for it in time if you keep your cool and remain calm.Believe me there are a lot of JWs out there who like to go to a few meetings now and then but also like to bend the rules a little bit. I hope things turn out well for you and your family.
My wife was raised JW and has recently been baptized. She was also taking our children to meetings. Over the last 6 months, I have seen a brain washing change in her that I can no longer tolerate. 3 weeks ago I no longer allowed the children to go based on biblical stance of being the headship of the marriage.
There is an entire episode at a hospital requiring immediate surgery, where I stood face on with 3 JW wanting access to my wife half naked and getting IVs in place to sign a durable power of attorney, taking away my rights as her husband. (I didn’t think they believed in trinity)
I have found I made a mistake in letting this go to this point without a stance. Can you provide insight that may be useful to getting my wife back?
it is better by far to recognize that most people are actively engaged mentally in their own lives, even those who appear to be parrots or robots, otherwise some passserby such as myself may read your words and come to an erroneous conclusion about you, because you see the truth of the matter is, when a person talks others see what that person is like, for example, I pay no attention whatsoever to your thoughts about JW’s, but I see your words and I think what a small minded and mean person, is that what you want the world to see, a vindictive spittle-spewing crazy on a cyber-street corner screaming at everybody about how crazy JW’s are?
To Patrick…
Patrick,
is it really so easy to know “what the bible says”?
Just read that recent acticle posted on this site on homosexuality… (You find it if you click on “comments” on the home page, currently near the top, from someone calling him/herself “S”.)
How would you know which interpretation is right, the JW one or the one presented there?
I checked through his references, including his Greek, and cannot find any fault in his interpretation, so to me at least it seems to be a valid, well thought out view, and I cannot find anything in the arguement itself that is faulty.
Is the JW position on this question equally well thought out or are you simply told, this it what it means, end of story?
So, if you had no leaders, how would you go about properly understanding the bible? Would it make sense to ask scholars from different backgrounds, perhaps, and weigh things up?
Jesus’ arrival nullified the use of the Ten Commandments.
However did not Jesus expose false prophets & those that misled others? So what are your guidelines without leadership? Will it be those left to you by the Watchtower (WTS) or the bible? The two are not synonymous at all, since the bible (I do not mean the NWT version which is biased) do not share many common beliefs with the WTS. The bible outlines parables, stories & some history, while the WTS build its legacy on total falsehood.
So just what would you believe without the WTS?
Patrick, People take a vote on what to do??? Does that mean the Holy Spirit is no longer the driving force behind the congregation for decisions?
Listen here pal, I was an elder, and we know exactly how things function.
If an elder announces that the “kingdom hall NEEDS to be painted” the majority will vote YES.
If someone suggests the hall should have air-conditioning and the elders decide NO. An announcement will be made saying: “some people think we should have air-conditioning in the hall, but we think it is TOO EXPENSIVE and with the end around the corner do we really need it? Who is in favor please show your hands” The majority will say NO.
Even though there was a vote on certain matters, in the end the result was what we wanted.
Believe me Patrick, not much has changed. The elder’s control, you on the other hand do as told.
That is not a democratic arrangement but a theocratic one.
They are not, the only thing the bible says about sex is that it should be between only a husband and wife. As far as what kind of sex its up to the couple.
Yes, however your leader/God the Watchtower has dictated what this action entails, by turning you all into publishers/solicitors for the Watchtower Society. This is why at least one of your meetings is a marketing/sales demo to ensure you are pushing the corporate product.
Study the real translation to determine for yourself that the action of literal door to door was not how Jesus’ disciples performed this action, however what is more imperative to be aware of is that they did not preach a man-made agenda built on garbage philosophies.
Nor did they protect pedophiles, practice hypocrisy, join any governmental organization (as the WTS did with the UN), sell literature (don’t try debating this one) or promote material other God’s actual words.
JWS can say things that are incorrect. But dont mistake what one or a few JWS think for what the society says.
Without leader ship I would do what the bible says. I would follow the ten commandments and would preach to others because Jesus told me to. An keep in mind Jesus never called people ignorant fools.
Are you trying to convince someone here or are you simply ignorant by choice?
Elders don’t manipulate people?
Obviously you haven’t seen this for yourself. Did you honestly expect ex-JW’s to buy this drivel?
Yes he didn’t and neither did I. However, it is very important to understand that your faith & its leader the Watchtower Society do not befit the same title or deity as Jesus. Please refrain from making any ‘so-called’ plausible parallels as that would be insulting to Christ.
Based on your religion’s ill-fated, misconstrued use of the bible and its endless faulty predictions, we certainly would never want to think that this faith is of the same merit as Jesus now would we?
The bible tells people to minister to others.
The elders dont manipulate people, in fact they hold congregaton votes as to what to do. If something with the hall needs to be done the people in the hall vote if they should do it or not. Everything the elders say can be backed up by the bible. And I have seen elders cry becasue they felt so horrible about what people in the congregation were going threw.
This is a funny comment. How many times have we asked JW’s not to come to our door, yet they still knock?
You see folks, for those who never truly fathomed why they continue to drive people nuts is purely due to their inability to understand that what they are doing is annoying others. Sure they realize this is some small measure, however when a person is brainwashed into thinking they are doing God’s work then they will carry on like mindless robots. Yes they are doing their God’s work, however their God is the Watchtower Society.
Jesus never called people assholes. Even as they were nailing him to a pool, and beating him, and spiting apon him, and putting a crown of thorns on his head making him bleed.
If you are mad at people for knowcking on your door why dont you go insult Mormons, salse people, or green peace. And if you tell JWS not to come back they wont
God will also remember a group of people that are unchristian in how they deal with their fellow brothers, protect pedophiles, personify hypocrisy and are back-stabbers.
Yes, using the same mentality Patrick, God will as well remember the vindictive, pompous & self-important JW’s posting comments that rival any contest for the worst grammar, yet are to be taken as serious & scholarly by their infantile perception.
Sorry, should also mention that God will never forget how many people have been screwed over by the Watchtower, how many times they lied in court to save an extra dollar, how many times they changed their prophecies and predictions all in the name of God’s apparently only channel, how many times they have made predictions and been wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME, been extremely irresponsible & unaccountable all the while pretending to be just like Jesus.
Hmmm…can’t say I remember Jesus being anything like this.
I was once a JW and still have family members in this cult. The difference with me versus you and/or your fellow JW’s is that I left the cult and spent time learning about real life, not the pseudo world generated by the Watchtower. Whether this entails secular and higher education is actually irrelevant, however it is important to understand why such learning matters.
Albeit there are some good well-intentioned folks within your faith, my comment was perceived as literal, when it was intended as a joke. And yes your faith is filled with legions of uneducated/illiterate and robotic people parroting whatever your master the Watchtower states as fact, even though you do not put a single one of their enunciations to the test. If you are inclined to disagree with me on this statement, please feel free to respond with a particular doctrine you did test and a summation of the results.
Basically, the argument proposed here hinges on the concept that individualism & true freedom do not exist within your faith, you merely pay lip service to the ideal, which again reflects on exactly how your master wishes you to think.
God will remember you said that.
Jehovas Witnesses are very nice people and you should not mis-treat them.
I am a Jehovash Witness and you need to be more respectful. Jehovash Witnesses are always respectful door to door and never insult you so dont insukt them. And no we dont have the same DNA.
i think you miss understand the term, consider your actions implications toward god . maybe thats what they mean.
Yes Ashley we know the story, however after so many illiterate and miss-spelled ridden postings from people who support this ridiculous religion, I just have to wonder if this is the God of rednecks?
By the way, is there a lot of inbreeding within this religion as well? Do you all have the same DNA?
to all of those who dislike or misbelieve in jehovah dont put him down becuz i love him hes my god i will live on paradise life forever dear jehovah god i love you and please be with me and my family ashley ro
Bucky, I was an elder and I never claimed my sayings were jesus or God’s.
I always followed the WT rules. Please never confuse them. WT has nothing to do with God or jesus.
WT is a printing business, the reason why they are registered as a company.
In the first century, quite a few of the elders that followed Jesus did not have much formal education. Apparently, there is a GREAT HOLY CLEAN SPIRIT just as there is a LESS GREAT DIRTY SPIRIT, in the affairs of mankind – and Jesus himself said at Math 28:19&220 —–And Lo, I am with all you alway, even to the end of the world. – I rather have Jesus than all the diplomas from all the universities in the world. how about you – whose great spirit do you indose? Elders readily admit their sayings are not theirs, but belongs to him who sent them.
Error on that members.aol link. The correct link is http://members.aol.com/beyondjw.bj.htm .
It is true that they don’t interfere with others–UNTIL they keep knocking on your door when you are trying to enjoy a peaceful afternoon. And they keep coming until you take literature. Then they expect you to study. If you don’t, they will keep coming at periodic intervals until you do. And once you do commit, you are going to be hounded down a path that leads to Trouble. You will have your life narrowed down to fit their doctrines. And you will not be allowed any freedom to think for yourself.
You don’t think so? One of the early chapters in the Knowledge book that they study from will claim that it is Satan that will try to keep you from making the “right”" decision (which would be to come in, according to the book). Just like the pitcher plant lures in the fly, the Witlesses lure in the victim until they are past the point of no return. Then, you become a drone that has no right to think on your own. If you have any doubts about this, try running “Jehovah’s Witnesses through a search engine and see what comes up.
I have been to a congregation, and I know what the elders are like. Their “education” comes from the Society. They teach what the Watchtower says, and nothing more or less. None are supposed to think on their own, either.
I also have seen feuds among elders. One got reproved after being a victim of a fraud, simply because the others envied his attempts to solve problems and not just pretend they didn’t exist. They also teach people to fake happiness. They also want people of the opposite sex to not get together. They make rules to keep people from bonding with others that might actually help them–some, to the extent as to make an OFFICIAL rule that one individual stick with the SAME sex when meeting others at assemblies. And they make so many stupid rules that it is impossible to just mind your own business.
All these abuses are actual events I have either seen, had happen to myself, or have heard about from multiple reliable sources. It is blatantly obvious that their teachings are from a bunch of old fogeys living in seclusion that don’t give a f%$& about anything but the cult. What makes it even more believable is that other ex-JW sites also agree. Check out http://members.aol/beyondjw/bj.htm , http://www.watchthetower.com , http://www.freeminds.org, and http://www.silentlambs.org if you need more proof.
Elders, by and large, are completely uneducated except for what the Watchtower Society wants them to know. They usually do whatever is within their power to control the flock, and they don’t give a rat’s ass about the effect that their counsel has on the emotional health of the victim. All they care about is the SPIRITUAL “health” (that is, how much they can get out of) of the people under them.
That Society is not qualified, either. They are a bunch of envious people that are sequestered from real life, and thus know nothing about people’s psychological needs. And they will denounce leading scientists as Satanic. This assures that people are going to be abused, and they usually abuse their trust. If you don’t believe me, I invite you to check out http://www.freeminds.org and check out Raymond Franz’s book Crisis of Conscience. That is, if you can tolerate a viewpoint that is different from your own. (Which most people that are loyal JeF^$Khova Witlesses are not.)
With few exceptions, the elders are not qualified to teach. They only parrot what the Society wants them to teach. The few that actually try to solve problems usually end up getting disfellowshipped for some bulls&#%, leave, or turn apostate. No wonder so many are waiting to leave this cult.
Jesus was the first born of all creation, and jws teach that it was him through god that created everything. Col 1: 15
Would the professional help you talk about come from the elders (window washers)?
mate you need some professional help..
Still using that crappy New World Translation are you? Listen Mr. Brainwashed, take your emotional non-factual comments and post them over in the Dr. Seuss website.
Thanks for the irrational & moronic comment. Lord knows how many stupid people there are. Isn’t that right goof?
The bible does not teach hell fire!!!!!
MORON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Elders are good living men not liars and unlike other religions we d0 not get away with serious sin cop on he is not an elder
Amen mary
Hey markus its mark relaaaax!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dont be abusive thats not the correct way!
Your right elder who comented below is not a jw.
nOT THE GUY IN THE VIDEO THE GUY WHO IS LEAVING COMMENTS AND CALLS HIMSELF ELDER A JW!!
tHE ELDER IN THE VIDEO DOES NOT SOUND BAD AT ALL HE IS HARMLESS!!!!!