Wedding Rings

January 4th, 2005 | Posted in: Quotes, Do | Keywords: none | 32 Comments



Wedding Rings

*** Watchtower 1952 June 15 pp.361-2 The Marriage Ceremony ***

RINGS

In marriage services performed by and for Jehovah’s witnesses, the exchange of rings between the bride and the bridegroom is left entirely optional with those being married. In the selection of the bride for Isaac it is recognized that Rebecca accepted a hand adornment. (Gen. 24:22, 30, 53, Mo; AT) Similarly in Luke 15:22, a ring was given to the prodigal by his father on his home-coming.

We, of course, recognize that rings are used extensively in many pagan rituals. This fact, however, in no wise prohibits their use in any Christian service, particularly when the Bible mentions their use with approval. It is certainly more reasonable to expect that Satan, the mimic god, copied their use from Jehovah, rather than to accept the untenable position that Jehovah copied their use from demonic heathen practices. However, if some prefer to dispense with them in their marriage service, it is their right to do so. On this point let each one feel quite free to do that which is proper and right in his own mind. A bridegroom does not wed his bride by putting a ring on her finger.

[Emphasis Added]

*** Watchtower 1956 September 15 p.571 Marriage Ceremony and Requirements ***

13 The wearing of rich clothes is not necessary for a civil marriage. The main thing is to be dressed neatly, becomingly, and, as a Christian, to be spiritually well-clothed with love, humility, obedience and faithfulness. A wedding ring may not be customary or may be beyond one’s means. The marriage estate is not everywhere symbolized by a wedding ring. It is no essential part of a marriage ceremony. Failure to give a wedding ring is not to one’s discredit. Even where the wedding ring is recognized as marking a married woman and serves notice upon anyone with passionate desires, some may conscientiously object to featuring a ring in the ceremony, having in mind the pagan origin of the customary wedding ring in Christendom. In some places the marriage estate of a woman is indicated by the style of dress that she wears or the new piece that she adds to her garments. Locally this is just as effective as a finger ring, in fact more noticeable. A wedding ring amounts to nothing if there is no real tie or if the marriage tie is not respected. A passionate woman will not let a ring keep her from committing adultery. The use of a ring in a marriage ceremony should therefore be left to each one’s decision according to conscience and local custom.

[Emphasis Added]

*** Watchtower 1969 January 15 pp.58-9 Christian Weddings Should Reflect Reasonableness ***

MARRIAGE CUSTOMS

Since there are so many traditional practices, should a Christian try to avoid all the wedding customs of his area? Not necessarily. He can be selective. Sometimes marriage customs have a practical basis, such as marrying on the day when most people are off from secular work, or in the cooler part of the day, after “siesta.” Or a tradition may be a touch of local color; one would hardly expect that persons in their hometown in Korea would dress as do natives of Lebanon, Finland or Fiji.

Of course, some customs are unscriptural and so they are objectionable to Christians. In many lands odd customs are followed so that the bride and groom or their guests will have “good luck.” Jehovah’s witnesses do not worship the god of Good Luck. (Isa. 65:11) Nor do they follow traditions that would lead observers to think that they do. Other customs are plainly acts of false worship. So one planning a wedding does well to examine practices common in his area and analyze how people view them locally. If it is acknowledged that a custom is connected with false religion or “good luck,” then the Christian will shun it.-2 Cor. 6:14-18.

Other traditions are unreasonable or unloving. In many lands it is common to throw rice at the bride and groom. What is the point of the custom? “Some peoples believe the rice is food to keep evil influences away from the bride and groom. Some say it assures the couple fertility.” (Science News Letter, June 8, 1963, p. 357) This illustrates that there are often a number of opinions as to the origin of a certain custom. But whatever the background of this one, do Christians normally take food and throw it at their friends, dirtying up the street in the process? Also, consider the matter of loving your neighbor as yourself. Would Christian love move one to play “practical jokes” to the embarrassment of a bride and groom? Jesus said: “Just as you want men to do to you, do the same way to them.”-Luke 6:31; 10:27.

Then there is the tradition of the wedding ring. A study of the subject would likely leave you confused as to the origin and meaning of the wedding ring; the claims are many, the facts muddled. Even if the Bible does not directly mention wedding rings, it is plain that Jehovah’s servants could wear rings. (Job 42:11, 12; Luke 15:22) But what if people in one’s land believe that a wedding ring symbolizes a couple’s unbroken faith, love and devotion? Christians do not attach any symbolic meaning to a wedding ring, even though they cultivate these qualities in marriage, and even if many in the world are hypocritical in claiming to manifest such. A wedding ring ensures nothing. It merely serves public notice of married estate. It is not improper for a Christian to give evidence of his or her married status by wearing a wedding ring, be it on the right hand, as in Germany, or on the left. Yet this is not a necessity where it is not a legal requirement. So the couple can decide what to do in accord with their financial situation and personal preferences.

Hence, in regard to wedding customs one can be selective, asking oneself: What is the significance of the custom in this locality at present? Will it offend others? Is it loving? Is it reasonable?

[Emphasis Added]

*** Watchtower 1972 January 15 p.63 Questions from Readers ***

Questions from Readers

• Is it proper for a Christian to wear a wedding ring?-Greece.

Many sincere Christians have asked this question out of a desire to avoid any custom of which God might disapprove. Some of the questioners know that Catholic prelate John H. Newman wrote: “The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, . . . sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.” (An Essay on the Development of the Christian Doctrine, 1878)* While the facts prove that many of the current religious practices Newman lists definitely were adopted from pagan worship, is that true of the wedding ring?

Actually there are conflicting ideas as to the origin of the wedding ring. Let us give a few examples: “Originally . . . the ring was a fetter, used to bind the captive bride.” (For Richer, for Poorer) “The ring is a relatively modern substitute for the gold coin or other article of value with which a man literally purchased his wife from her father.” (The Jewish Wedding Book) “The wedding ring is supposed to be of Roman origin, and to have sprung from the ancient custom of using rings in making agreements.” (American Cyclopaedia) “Various explanations have been given of the connection of the ring with marriage. It would appear that wedding-rings were worn by the Jews prior to Christian times.”-The International Cyclopaedia.

It is thus seen that the precise origin of the wedding ring is uncertain. Even if it were a fact that pagans first used wedding rings, would that rule such out for Christians? Not necessarily. Many of today’s articles of clothing and aspects of life originated in pagan lands. The present time divisions of hours, minutes and seconds are based on an early Babylonian system. Yet, there is no objection to a Christian’s using these time divisions, for one’s doing so does not involve carrying on false religious practices.

Of course, our concern is greater as regards the use of wedding rings, since this relates, not to minor secular matters, but to the marriage relationship, which the Christian rightly views as sacred before God. Really, the question is not so much whether wedding rings were first used by pagans but whether they were originally used as part of false religious practices and still retain such religious significance. As has been shown, the historical evidence does not allow for any definite conclusion on this. What does the Bible say about the use of rings?

The Bible shows that some of God’s servants in the past wore rings, even ones that had special meaning attached to them. Wearing a signet ring could indicate that one had received authority to act in behalf of the ruler who owned it. (Gen. 41:42; Num. 31:50; Esther 8:2, 8; Job 42:11, 12; Luke 15:22) So, while wedding rings are not mentioned, these true worshipers clearly did not scruple against using rings for more than mere adornment.

Some persons say that a wedding ring represents one’s unending love and devotion in marriage. The increasing divorce rate in many lands where married persons usually wear a wedding ring proves that this meaning is more imagined than real. Nonetheless, for the majority of persons, including Christians, in lands where wedding rings are common, the ring is an outward indication that the wearer is a married person. In other localities the same point is shown in a different way, such as by a woman’s wearing a certain style of clothing.

Of course, a wedding ring is by no means a Christian requirement. One Christian might decide not to wear a wedding ring, because of conscience, personal taste, cost, local custom, or some other reason. Yet another Christian might decide to indicate his married status by means of a wedding ring. Hence, in the final analysis the decision is a personal one, to be made in accord with the conscientious views one holds.

* [Footnotes]

This book was first written while Newman was still an Anglican, and was published in 1845. After converting to Catholicism, Newman published a somewhat revised edition in 1878. The next year he was made a Cardinal in the Catholic church.

[Emphasis Added]

[The follwing is the material ommitted by the ellipses (…) in the Watchtower quote from An Essay on the Development of the Christian Doctrine]

…and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields…



32 Comments

Comment by Viner (Comment ID: 361976)

There is a difference between wearing wedding rings and celebrating birthdays. As the article states about wedding rings:

“Really, the question is not so much whether wedding rings were first used by pagans but whether they were originally used as part of false religious practices and still retain such religious significance. As has been shown, the historical evidence does not allow for any definite conclusion on this.”

On the other hand, the historical evidence on the origin of birthdays indicates that they were used as part of false religious practices and still retain such religious significance.

Famous anthropologists, Ralph and Adeline Linton write in their book, The Lore of Birthdays: “Originally the idea [of birthday greetings and wishes for happiness] was rooted in magic. The working of spells for good and evil is the chief usage of witchcraft. One is especially susceptible to such spells on his birthday, as one’s personal spirits are about at that time. Dreams dreamed on the birthday eve should be remembered, for they are predictions of the future brought by the guardian spirits which hover over one’s bed on the birthday eve. Birthday greetings have power for good or ill because one is closer to the spirit world on this day. Good wishes bring good fortune, but the reverse is also true, so one should avoid enemies on one’s birthday and be surrounded only by well-wishers. ‘Happy birthday’ and ‘Many happy returns of the day’ are the traditional greetings…

The giving of birthday gifts is a custom associated with the offering of sacrifices to pagan gods on their birthdays. Certainly the custom was linked with the same superstitions that formed the background for birthday greetings. “The exchange of presents… is associated with the importance of ingratiating good and evil fairies… on their or our birthdays…

The traditional birthday cake and candles also have their origin in ancient pagan idol worship. The ancients believed that the fire of candles had magical properties. They offered prayers and made wishes to be carried to the gods on the flames of the candles. Thus we still have the widely practiced birthday custom of making a wish, then blowing out the candles. The Greeks celebrated the birthday of their moon goddess, Artemis, with cakes adorned with lighted candles…”

Eventhough members of pagan religions wore rings, there’s no historical or scriptural indication that the rings originated in false worship or that wearing them carries on a false religious practice. However, the customs related to birthdays are clearly linked to false religious practices. Additionally, both biblical and secular sources agree that the Jews and early Christians did not celebrate birthdays, viewing them as part of idolatrous worship, but there are indications that they wore rings.

So, since Jehovah’s Witnesses are careful to avoid anything that may displease God, they avoid these out of love for him, not out of force. No one has to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses; they choose whether or not they want to align their lives with the principles of the faith, just as in any faith that respects free will.

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on September 18, 2008 at 8:16 pm


Comment by Anonymous (Comment ID: 362066)

viner you are really full of shit!

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on September 19, 2008 at 12:08 am

 

Comment by Anonymous (Comment ID: 362488)

Viner,
Birthdays are not celebrated by witnesses.
The reasons are as follows: Jesus mentioned to his desiples that his day of birth should not be celebrated but the day of his death should be.The other two instances birthdays mentioned in the Bible both indicate somewhat disasterous results for some of the key players in the Bible. One Pharoah hung one of his cup bearers, and more famously Herod had John the baptist beheaded. Not very nice I agree, the Watchtower heirocracy has read these instances and hereby banned any birthday celebration as it is a Pagan custom. The Pagans were a cult not dissimilar to your own, who celebrated nature, the act of kindliness and held the idea of fertility sacred. These Pagans basically country folk were persecuted by superstitous Christians high in the church who convinced the law makers of the time that these simple folk were a threat to them.They proceeded to wipe out these simple people under the premise of them being anti gods, or non conformers of their dogmatic teachings which generally lead to much torturing until confessions were obtained, which in most cases were, many a witch was burned alive in the name of Christianity.
Just because some people in high places did something bad on a BIRTHDAY! Shoot down birthdays, jeez talk about killing the messanger, birthdays have been celebrated for eons.
Birthdays as told by your Watchtower leaders are bad, think of the physiological damage you do to your daughter when she has to go sit outside when all the kids are eating cake and enjoying a rare break from schooling.
Do yourself a massive favor, think and the key word is THINK before you are suckered in by these friendly sincere people.
How do you think the Watchtower became what is now a multi-billion $ organization?
Do you think it is because the organization is run by Jehovah? Unlikely as to the view Jehovah has on Earthly riches. More likely I say it is because six million of you sell mags for a few dollars a month, some of your colleagues do this lot full time, and guess what? No pay. Work out the numbers, should make you think, but I wonder.

Cheers,
Markus

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on September 19, 2008 at 4:39 pm


Comment by Fri (Comment ID: 362624)

Yep Markus because 2 people were killed during 2 birthdays the witnesses no longer celebrate birthdays. It makes me wonder, how many witnesses die per year related to car accidents?? Should the stupid ones no longer drive cars and start riding assess like jesus??? They could be riding each other (an ass riding another) just think the amount of money they would save on gas and less pollution too, ha…ha…ha…ha…ha……ha…

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on September 19, 2008 at 11:04 pm

 

Comment by Nicole (Comment ID: 377859)

I just wanted to make a comment regarding your issue with Jehovah’s Witnesses choosing not to celebrate their own or other’s birthday’s.

I had to make sence of this myself at one point and this is my conclusion. Doesn’t it seem odd to you that out of all the faithful servants of God, recorded in the bible, that not one of them spoke about anything special happening on their own or Jesus` birthday. If it was really a harmless observance, don’t you think SOMEONES, birthday would have been mentioned, especially Jesus`?

This child the whole combination of creation has been waiting for, on this one day, that this child was going to be born and finally put into motion diliverance and redemption for everything that moves, doesn’t it seem strange that the only gift bearers arrived at least 40 days after his birth, and were not God-fearing?

What is more, we know the exact date of his death but not a single mention of the date of his birth.

I think for those who do THINK, it is very reasonable to conclude that the whole point was not be absorbed into rationlizing that the date you were born into this imperfect world is the whole point, because it is not. Your redemption is the whole point. Living for 70-80 years, in sickness and saddness, is not quality, nor is it what God had in mind. So every year you get closer to your death due to inheritied imperfection, God is not sitting up there clapping and cheering and sending you a blessing. Instead he is anxiously waiting to see if you will follow his directions and be faithful out of love for him.

The celebration of your birth is not spoken of by God because it is human imperfection being irrational. Instead our focus should not be on the date one is born, but, instead, on living our years, regardless of how many each shall have, living in harmony with God and his requirements for his human creation. Why, because he has a very special gift he wants to give his obedient and loving ones. Everlasting birthday’s! Whay would we count those?

You see his original purpose was for humans to live indefinately. Again, showing no need for birthday’s.
The only mention of birthday’s in the bible were celebrated by men who did not serve God, nor did they care to. Why would they so careless observe a tradition God created, but yet, have no inclination to observe any other tradition of his? I think it is pretty safe to say that rulers who did not serve God were so self-centered that they would not consider any other tradition then that of their ancestors or ones they made up themselves.

As Pharoah would say, “who is this Jehovah that I should obey his voice, I do not know Jehovah and what is more, I will not listen to his voice”. But yet he would faithfully observe his tradition? Think again. Jehovah did not even have his chosen people established yet, so how was he to hand out traditions?

On a final note, it is pretty safe to say, at this point in time, we have to be very careful to know the orgins of anything. Satan has had too much influence on humans for way too long, and we do not know what exact corruption may be involved in the simplest things. So, better safe than sorry, should be our approach. Sowhat if we don’t get to give gifts on our birthdate. We give gifts on any other given day, it’s not a big deal. We are all fully aware of our age, birthday celbration or not.

I’ll take everlasting life out of love and obedience, anyday, over a couple of perishable gift’s once a year. Didn’t Jesus say it is better on one’s day of death than on one’s day of birth?! That would be a wonderful place to start your birthday reaserch. Why did he say that?

Agape Love,
Nicole

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 10, 2008 at 7:47 pm


Comment by Fri (Comment ID: 377984)

Nicole my dear, nowhere in the bible it says one should go around selling magazines in order to get money for God. He is for sure the worst manager when it comes to money. People keep on giving it to god (by the millions) and apparently he still needs more. Why cant he learn how to manage the money? A simple course in Accounting would do you it, don’t you think?????
Nowhere in the bible it says you should keep track of the hours spent in field service, don’t you think if it was important some should have been mentioned in the bible?
Nowhere in the bible it says you should shave your beard and wear a tie while in service, again if it was important shouldn’t it be mentioned in the bible?
No where in the bible it says you should have electricity, drive a car, and own a computer. If important it should have been recorded in the bible. Don’t you think???
Actually the bible does mention 2 birthdays that I can remember right now.
As for the people arriving 40 days after jesus birthday, well Nicole they did not have planes or any other means of fast transportation. If he had been born today he would have received presents the same day don’t you think?? Unfortunately they rode hard headed camels like yourself, so what can we say.

You might not think that birthday are important but they are. If I recall it you could not be a minister unless he was 4o year old. How would you know you were 40 if you did not count them???
It is funny when you say that only people who did not serve god celebrated their birthdays. Since the bible only mentions 2 is that fare to say only 2 people did not serve God in the entire world at that time???

Yep let us blame everything on Satan, the created escape goat. Is it fare to say that he is doing a much better job that god??
For nearly 200 years you have been saying the end is just around the corner. I think god fell asleep, fell from a cloud and broke his neck. What do you think???

Please do tell me your honest opinion.

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 10, 2008 at 11:59 pm

 
 

Comment by Anonymous (Comment ID: 377879)

I just wanted to inform you that these poor country folk were by no means innocent. Some found it desirable to make their children pass through the fire to their god, molech. This was a sacrifice to their unactive god.

I agree that these nations, or country folk as you like to call them were alienated from any special requirements specifically given to them by God. However, they are the very esscence and result of what the world is and will continue to be apart from God. Immoral, inhumane, and lost. But even they may get another shot at life, under proper direction, God’s. This is the resurrection hope they may have. Acts 5:28,29. Resurrection of righteous AND unrighteous.

I also, agreee that shortly after Christ’s death, the apostacy began to infiltrate into the christian faith and it still remains to be apart of most christians. However, there are the select few that choose to make sure they are not being mislead by traditions of man but instead are giving whole-hearted worship to Jehovah God and him alone.

Think about what Jesus did for mankind while he was here. He healed the sick, lame, blind and raised the dead and fed the hungry, spiritually and physically. Do you think this was by any means a burdonsome load for those who chose to follow him. Heck no! This was relief! This was an act of love and a glimps of what is to come for all mankind. Jehovah is not partial, all have to oppertunity to reap this blessing. But there are requirements, otherwise what kindof paradise could he offer if those who were a part of it were bent on being the same lousy people they were before. We are only good people when we are folllowing Jehovah’s commandments. Christian or not.

Also, this organization has been funded on VOLUNTARY donations. For those of us who do go from door-to-door, more than half the time we don’t even ask for a voluntary donation. Eventually we will mention it to those who like the literature regularily but it is never a requirement. That is half the reason why we say we have Jehovah’s backing is because everything is done out of love. Not compulsion.

If the time comes when we do not have enough coming in to finance the printing work then we adjust accordingly, it’s as simple as that. Breathe is free, and that is all it takes to make a witness about our loving creator Jehovah. But for those ones who refuse to open their hearts to what makes sence, we print easy to understand articles, and hand out free bibles and books. Not for the voluntary money but out of love for mankind because we have been taught not to be partial either. Everyone deserves the chance at everlasting life in the future and peace-of-mind now. Wouldn’t you agree?

Agape Love,
Nicole

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 10, 2008 at 8:34 pm


Comment by Rel (Comment ID: 378216)

Well Nicole, some made their children pass through fire, you on the other hand make you children sell magazines from door to door from an age of 4 for long periods of hours while they should be with other children playing. My wife was forced to sit through those long 2 hour meetings without using the bathroom while she was a little child. Now at the age of 35 she cannot hold very long and sometimes pees herself if a bathroom is not close at hand. Abuse you have plenty within your so called congregations.
Apostasy did creep in after jesus death (if one believes in jesus) and is still predominantly, especially within the jw’s.
You think that you are all special, but you are not dear.
You think to believe that jesus did a lot for mankind like curing the sick the lame and the blind. Well my dear, I still see too many lame and blind especially within the jw’s. so no much change there.
Please don’t give us the rotary crap how the org works, as most of us here if not all were jw’s at one point or another in our lives. We are fully aware how it works.
The org prints and reprints the same books all for the sake of money. So that twits like yourself can buy it again. Did you know that on the watchtower and Awake magazine the WT makes nearly a billion dollars profit per year???
Nicole, as of 2001 it cost the WT only 4 cents to print the color Watchtower magazine. It might be hard to believe but I have in front of me the comparison of printing costs for 2 color magazine on letter press versus Harris on 1 shift. If you ever worked on the printing department you would know what I am talking about.
For the pocket size books the price was about 37 cents.
Did you know that if the founder of the WT (charles taze russel) was alive today he would be condemned as an apostate as his views differ so much from modern day jw??? You will excuse it as saying the light gets brighter. If the light get brighter indeed does that mean that the truth you teach today and preach on the door steps will be in error tomorrow?
If you are a jw you are being brainwash.

PS. you are not counting the time spent here as field service are you???

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 11, 2008 at 1:28 pm


Comment by Markus (Comment ID: 378338)

Hey Nicole,

I am an ex Witness. I was never to my knowledge disfellowshipped, I left on my own accord as the meetings were getting more and more boring, the same material was gone over again and again, and because we are now in the end is near times that bloody revelation book was done three times.

I had made many friends that somehow never felt like true friends, there always seemed to be a subtle front, maybe this feeling was just me, I’m not sure.

I chose to leave. I was never happy with my decision until I started to read the Bible without any prejudice. Ironic it is that the same book I read for comfort turned me against all ny previous convictions.

These are some of my reasons:

Jesus is a liar. Read Mathew 24 ‘Truly I say to YOU that THIS generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.’ Note the YOU. He was telling the generation then living Do you honestly believe he was talking about events which were only going to happen a few centuries later? Paul also took this to be fact and went to Corinth and told folk there not to get married. A silly thing to do if the end was only going to come about in a few ions. You can combine this with scriptures in Revelation all you want, what is said here is blatantly clear.

Here is a fact most witnesses are oblivious to: Charles Taze Russel who founded the witnesses by breaking away from another Adventist group was a high ranking free mason. I do not have a problem here but he initially used the pyramids of Egypt to calculate the end of the world with some cockadudled calculation he got to 1889 later revised to 1914. Details of this are well presented on this very site.

Getting back to the Birthday issue, when the Bible mentions birthdays bad or evil things happen, from your organization’s perspective birthdays are bad, and I can see why you don’t celebrate birthdays.

I put it to you that although the birthday reasoning may be ambiguous here is an example of something that is not ambiguous but straight forward with clear cut no questions asked clarity:
However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak… that prophet must die. …How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken? When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. Deuteronomy 18: 20-22 from your very own NWT.
As you say with abundant love, how more abundantly clearer would you like it to be?
Here are dates published by your organization, announcing the times of the end.

1914 (amended from 1889), 1925 then 1975. Most interestingly though is 1914, for when Jesus failed to arrive it was declared that he did indeed do so but INVISIBLY. Jeez, what an excuse? But like most kindergarden children you have no problem accepting this.
I suppose you Nicole, like most holier than thou JWs I have met on this site will not stick around to debate what I and other ex witnesses are willing to argue. You will generally disappear never to be heard of again, which is a pity because I would like to show you many truths normally not promoted by most Christian clergy.

Example: the fact that the NT only was put to the pen between 70 and 150 AD, which sort of blows all OT prophesies of the coming of the messiah out of the water so to speak.
Also the mere existence of our hero Jesus is rather dubious. Reliable historians Philo and Josephus have nothing to say about Jesus who walked on water, healed the sick, raised the dead or (my personal favourite) changed water to wine. So little written about someone so great. I find this remarkable.

Warm Regards,
Markus

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 11, 2008 at 7:46 pm


Comment by Nicole (Comment ID: 381075)

Markus,

Regarding the comment Jesus made to his disciples using the word YOU, Can you honestly tell me that you know exactly what Jesus was referring to when he said “generation”? What generation? Can you say for sure that this comment was talking about them as individuals in their short life-span OR could he have been talking about the generation of the anointed, as a whole? Do you really think that the book you turned to for comfort is actually full of lies? Or could it be that your understanding is not in harmony with the bibles wisdom, for other reasons. Like, for instance, read James 1:5-7. This clearly says, if you are unsteady in your ways, Jehovah will not bless your unsteadiness, including praying for holy spirit to guide you in your thinking and understanding. Holy Spirit is a blessing.

Also, regarding your comment about the Pyramids, this is not a secret. It is published in the Jehovah’s Witnesses Kingdom Proclaimers book. He was not the only one to come up with the 1889 date by means of the measurements of the Pyramid. However, the end of the gentile times was what figured the 1914 date ultimately. You can do the math yourself. This was very clear and unmistakable. Did you also know that they used to celebrate Christmas and other Holidays and Birthday’s and even take cigarette breaks during the meetings? Why does it surprise you that they used divination and astrology? They came straight out of false religion, of course their start was less than adequate to what we/they know now. Their heart condition was what Jehovah saw, not their lack of knowledge. Please do not judge them for their ignorant mistakes, their corrected course is what should matter.

Also, regarding the faithful and discreet slave making false predicitions, this infact is all they were, predictions. NEVER have they claimed to be prophet’s. They claim to be under Holy Spirit. There is a big difference. Yes, I agree they have been presumptuous in their statements at times, and even misleading in their predictions but they never said Jehovah directly told them anything. This infact is what a prophet is. They were excited about some educated guesses and chose to share them with their bothers and sisters. Were they wrong, yes. But again, shouldn’t the reader take some blame in their own presumptuousness? Doesn’t the bible clearly say, only the father knows the hour, Matthew 24:36.

Jehovah only has imperfect man to work with right now. Which means mistakes are going to be made. But Jehovah’s goal is not to make man perfect right now, his goal is to let everybody know what is on the horizon and give them all a chance to learn about his kingdom, the true government, that will fix all that is broken, including his faithful servants. This is the goal. Yes, he is using imperfect men to oversee this important work, but they are getting the job done, aren’t they! I think they have learned from their mistakes, don’t you? I haven’t seen a single article in a long time that suggested a date or year. They finally realized that educated guesses were not good enough and it was a cause for stumbling. I am sure they begged for forgiveness from Jehovah for their presumptuous statements and they apologized to the readers, as well. Jesus taught to forgive up to 77 times, which means as long as there is an apology, stop counting. We do well to observe this command.

Finally, there has been secular documentation found which spoke directly of Jesus. But honestly, you are forgetting one major thing, we are not in paradise, we are in Satan’s system. You should know the scriptures which verify this statement. Do you honestly think Satan would leave trails of evidence about Jesus and his existence? We barely got the bible to slide through to our time, and we know Jehovah was the reason it did. Do you expect that non-christian or even christian individuals would have their writings about Jesus make it to our day? Absolutely not. It’s amazing their are less than a handful at all.

I am sure that after you made your decision to leave the witnesses you were bombarded with differing opinions. And after your confusion got the best of you, you turned to the internet and found all sorts of new best friends who were willing to show you the “TRUTH”. Bottom line is this, Jehovah is not a God of darkness, or bitterness, or hate, or grudges, or confusion. Everything that is good, loving, forgiving, just and true is from Jehovah. People who are mad and confused and haughty, did not get that way because Jehovah has blessed them and their wisdom, and decided to give them these qualities as his means of salvation and truth. We are supposed to be righteous people seeking to better one another, even our enemies. This is our personal goal given to us by Jehovah. His holy spirit enables us to achieve this goal. How do you get his holy spirit? This can be answered simply by thinking back to when you first started studying and got baptized, how did you get to that point? Was it on your own strength? Or was Jehovah’s Holy Spirit brainwashing you into becoming a better person through accurate knowledge?

The elders are not perfect either, they will make mistakes too. But instead of becoming holier than thou, and perfect in your own eyes, your goal should be to be forgiving and patient. Jehovah ALWAYS fixes mistakes. You are not perfect and neither is any one single person in this world. But if you want to know where Jehovah is, you go where the love is. Brother’s and sister’s, at times have their own personal problems with showing affection and we all grow at different speeds and in different areas at different times, but the point is we are growing. Jehovah’s witnesses are the only ones who are preaching the good news of the kingdom for a witness to ALL the nations. Remember that. It does not say, this good news of the kingdom will be preached by perfect people, in a perfect organization, does it?

We need to humble ourselves and take in the “food at the proper time” dispersed by the “faithful and discreet slave”, because it IS the food at the proper time. It is food helping us to grow to maturity in our love for people, Jehovah and ourselves. Don’t miss the point! I beg you to stop listening to people who are only trying to bring you down with their unanswered questions and doubts and overall negative attitude. Since your not disfellowshipped, I beg you as your sister! Please, take a step back and see the big picture. I promise not everyone is working on being genuine in their love for you.

Also, there have been some wonderful changes regarding our meetings and literature. Our C.O. even gave a wonderful way to use sticky notes to witness about the kingdom, and not magazines. So no, you don’t have to be a salesman for the WBTS, as you have been so lovingly informed.

If Rel has decided to read this, I am not confortable speaking with you any longer because you are disfellowshipped. But I will say that you are in my prayers and NO, I would never count any conversation that doesn’t happen at a door, as time. My hours are not my goal. Showing love is!

Agape Love,
Nicole

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 17, 2008 at 5:03 pm


Comment by Markus (Comment ID: 381163)

Nicole,

Thanks for your thoughts; you seem to like long comments so here we go:

JEEEEZ, I have never heard this much horseshit (sorry, could not think of a more descriptive word). You say Satan is to blame for the non-historical evidence of Jesus. You must have heard the saying: ‘All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing’. I put it to you that Joe is very guilty of this, if it happened, which to me is unlikely.
The JW have been predicting dates for a long time. The JEHOVAHS witness who only do what they do guided by the faithful and discrete slave (a direct link to Jehovah, or more accurately a bunch of narrow minded men at headquarters), and predict the end of the world, on more than one occasion, and when this does not come about, causes some concern. The first is that they may have no link to Jehovah. Some faithful never completed college educations, others cashed in pensions and many got themselves into financial difficulties believing they would never have to repay.
I personally have heard at an assembly where the speaker categorically told youngsters not to study further but to consider full time pioneering. No doubt many people nowadays are living on the breadline because of this assembly. Again I quote Deuteronomy 18: 20-22.
If you say you never said the end is coming you do not have a clue what your organization does. The scripture says Jehovah, the Watchtower is Jehovah’s organization and yet you still say Jehovah never said anything!??

Paul went to Corinth, he told everyone there at that time living then, to prepare to move to the hills, he told them not to get married, not to have children. WHY? I ask if the end was only arriving a century or two later? Please explain?
In 1914 Jesus did not arrive, his coming was much anticipated by Russel and his colleagues.
Of course the non-arrival of Jesus was passed off as: he actually did arrive but INVISIBLY, have we noticed any change since his invisible appearance? Only a half wit could have dreamed up this excuse, and yet incredibly 6 million of you plus believe it? I know all of you are not stupid, my Stepdad is an attorney, my brother a mechanical engineer. Your Brainwashing system is very good it has to be said.
As far as Matt 24 goes, here are some unbiased opinions regarding what Jesus was referring to when he was talking about ‘This Generation’:
Paul went to Corinth, he told everyone there at that time living then, to prepare to move to the hills, he told them not to get married, not to have children. WHY I ask if the end was not near. Maybe Satin told him to say this is can be the only answer.

Here are Fifty-Two Translations: Matthew 24:34.
Refs below.
(1) Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
(2) This generation will not have passed before all this is accomplished.
(3) By no means may this generation be passing by until….
(4) This generation shall not pass away till all these things….
(5) Before the present generation passes away, these things will all happen.
(6) This generation will not pass away….
(7) In no wise shall this generation pass away until all these things shall happen.
(8) This generation will by no means pass away till all these things are fulfilled.
(9) This generation will not disappear till all this has taken place.
(10) This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things….
(11) …this generation will not pass away….
(12) …this generation will not pass away….
(13) …this generation shall not pass away till….
(14) This generation may not pass away till all these things…
(15) …this generation shall not pass away….
(16) …this generation shall not pass away….
(17) …this generation will not come to an end….
(18) This generation will not have passed away until all these things shall have taken place.
(19) This generation will not disappear until these things happen….
(20) This generation shall not pass until….
(21) In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.
(22) This generation shall not pass….
(23) This generation shall not pass away….
(24) Before this generation has passed away, all these things will have taken place.
(25) This generation will not pass away….
(26) This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.
(27) The present generation will not pass away until all this takes place.
(28) These people will not pass away till all this happens.
(29) This generation will not pass away….
(30) This generation shall not pass away….
(31) This generation will not pass away before all these things have taken place.
(32) This generation will not come to an end till all these things are complete.
(33) This generation will by no means pass away before all these things take place.
(34) This generation will not pass away….
(35) Before this generation passes away, all these things will happen.
(36) This generation will not pass away….
(37) This generation will not pass away….
(38) Indeed, I can give you solemn assurance that this generation will not have passed away before all this has taken place.
(39) This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled.
(40) I tell you, even the present generation will not pass away, till all these things have taken place.
(41) The people of this day will not pass away before all these things have happened.
(42) The present generation shall not pass away till all these things happen.
(43) This present generation shall not pass away until all these things arrive.
(44) The present generation will not pass away till all this happens.
(45) I tell you this: the present generation will live to see it all.
(46) I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place.
(47) I assure you, all these things will take place before this present generation passes on.
(48) I swear to God, this generation certainly won’t pass into oblivion before all these things take place!
(49) I can promise you that some of the people of this generation will still be alive when all this happens.
(50) Truly, I tell you, this generation–that is, the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period–will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.
(51) I tell you the truth–all these things will happen while the people of this time are still living!
(52) Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.

Read what the experts have to say:

Five Greek Lexicons: genea.
(1) The interval of time between father & son… from thirty to forty years those living in any one period; this present generation.
(2) A generation of mankind, a step in genealogy.
(3) A generation, an interval in time.
(4) The whole multitude of men living at the same time–Mt xxiv.34… used esp. of the Jewish race living at one and the same period.
(5) The sum total of those born at the same time… all those living at the same time… contemporaries… Mt. 24:34.

Twenty-Five Bible Dictionaries: genea.
(1) Those born at the same time constitute a generation… contemporaries.
(2) Thus Herodotus says that “three generations of men make an hundred years.”
(3) It is used of people living at the same time, and by extension… of the time itself… 40 years.
(4) Of the 43 references to genea in the NT… 25 (are) of its occurrences to the Jewish people in the time of Jesus.
(5) The whole multitude of men living at the same time. A period ordinarily occupied by each successive generation, say, of thirty or forty years.
(6) It mostly denotes “generation” in the sense of contemporaries… Mt. 24:34. This generation is to be understood temporally.
(7) The age or period of a body of contemporaries…. The generation lasts as long as any of the members survive.
(8) … from thirty to forty years….
(9) … the sum total of individuals forming a contemporary group.
(10) The period of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their children… most biblical writers seem to consider thirty to forty years a normal generation.
(11) …the period from a man’s birth to that of his son–and collectively the people who live in that period.
(12) …the period of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their children… the term simply refers to all people living at a particular time.
(13) A body of people who live at the same time in a given period of history.
(14) …from thirty to forty years… contemporaries.
(15) Used in the general sense of a period of time, the span of one human life, or those who live at a particular period of time.
(16) The “circle” of life, spanning from a man’s birth to that of his son… forty years.
(17) Mt. 24:34–”This generation” equals the persons then living contemporary with Christ.
(18) The age or period of a body of contemporaries….
(19) Mt. 24:34–”This generation” equals the persons then living contemporary with Christ.
(20) …about 25 years. A generation is all the people living at about the same period of time, Mt 24:34.
(21) In general, the word generation in the Bible refers to any contemporary group.
(22) It was fixed by some at 100 years, by others at 110, by others at 33, 25, and even at 20 years.
(23) Of all men living at any given time… Mt 24:34… a period of about 30 to 33 years.
(24) Matt xxiv.34, “This generation shall not pass….” All who are at present living shall not be dead when this shall come to pass. There are some at this day living, who shall be witnesses of the evils which I have foretold shall befall the Jews.
(25) We must adhere to the ordinary usage, according to which dor signifies an age, or the men living in a particular age.

Six Bible Encyclopedias: genea.
(1) Genea refers to a period of time loosely defined as the time between a parent’s prime and that of his child…. Those living at a given time in history are referred to as a generation.
(2) Matt. 24:34, genea means the generation or persons then living contemporary with Christ.
(3) Genea: It has the concept of the sum total of those born at the same time–contemporaries.
(4) Genea means the generation of persons then living contemporary with Christ.
(5) Matt. xxix.34, genea means the generation or persons then living contemporary with Christ.
(6) “The present generation” comprises all those who are now alive. Matt xxiv.34, some now living shall witness the event foretold. Our Lord uses the term to express a period of about 36 or 37 years… say about A.D. 70.

Sixteen Bible Commentaries: genea.
(1) …verse 34 solemnly promises that Jesus will return while some of his contemporaries are still alive (a reprise of 16:28)…. The gospel testimony provides strong support for this view: Jesus did not know all things.
(2) (This generation) can only with the greatest of difficulty be made to mean anything other than the generation living when Jesus spoke.
(3) “This generation” clearly designates the contemporaries of Jesus.
(4) The statement in verse 34 is a difficult one. If generation is to be taken in this strict sense, then “all these things” must be limited to the events culminating in A.D. 70…. The majority of the best scholars today insist that generation be taken in its strictest sense.
(5) Jesus was quite certain that they would happen within the then living generation.
(6) [Matthew] probably believed, however, that the end could come before all of Jesus’ hearers had died.
(7) Further, he [Jesus] insists that his words are infallible, and that they are more certain than the material universe itself….
(8) This verse recalls 16.28, and affirms that some of the disciples would live to see the Parousia. This would presuppose a relatively early date for the event…. Was Jesus in error in his prediction of the nearness of the end?
(9) In the Old Testament a generation was reckoned as forty years. This is the natural way to take verse 34…. He plainly stated in verse 34 that those events would take place in that generation…. One may, of course, accuse Jesus of hopeless confusion…. It is impossible to escape the conclusion that Jesus, as Man, expected the end within the lifetime of his contemporaries.
(10) The hard fact still remains that if Jesus spoke the sayings of St. Mark xiii and St. Matthew xxiv… he misjudged the extent of his own knowledge and uttered a definite prediction which was not fulfilled.
(11) The Synoptists fell into the contradiction… of making Jesus declare at one moment that He did not know the time of the glorious Advent, and at another that it would infallibly happen within that generation.
(12) The affirmation that “all these things” will happen in this generation is clear, and there is no reason to alter the meaning of the word generation from its usual sense except a fear that the Scriptures may be in error if it is not so altered.
(13) Indeed, the fulfillment will take place before this present generation has passed away.
(14) Did Jesus expect the end within the lifetime of those who heard him speak? It seems quite certain that the early church so understood him.
(15) Matthew made it clear that some of the first disciples would live to see the Parousia.
(16) … v. 34; there are those now alive, who shall see Jerusalem destroyed.

Nine Christian Scholars & Authors: genea & Matthew 24:34.
(1) REV. CHUCK SMITH: As a rule, a generation in the Bible lasts 40 years.
(2) DR. DAVID FRIEDRICH STRAUSS: …the word genea… was put to the torture….
(3) GEORGE MURRY: If the saying relates to the parousia, it sets the end time within the bounds of the first generation church. The phrase “this generation” should cause no difficulty for interpreters… It always signifies his [Jesus’] contemporaries.
(4) DR. ALBERT SCHWEITZER: And He [Jesus] was to come, moreover, within the lifetime of the generation to which He had proclaimed the nearness of the Kingdom of God.
(5) GARY DEMAR: No future generation of Jews is meant here.
(6) REV. STUART RUSSELL: Next, our Lord sums up with an affirmation calculated to remove every vestige of doubt or uncertainty, “Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” One would reasonably suppose that after a note of time so clear and express there could not be room for controversy. Our Lord Himself has settled the question. Ninety-nine persons in every hundred would undoubtedly understand His words as meaning that the predicted catastrophe would fall within the lifetime of the existing generation. Not that all would live to witness it, but that most or many would. There can be no question that this would be the interpretation which the disciples would place upon the words…. His coming… would come to pass before the existing generation had wholly passed away, and within the limits of their own lifetime.
(7) EDWARD GIBBON: [Members of the primitive church] were obliged to expect the second and glorious coming of the Son of Man in the clouds before that generation was totally extinguished which had beheld his humble condition upon the earth.
(8) REV. MILTON TERRY: The words immediately preceding them show the absurdity of applying them to another generation than that of the apostles: “When ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.” The teaching of Jesus was emphatic beyond all rational question that that generation should not pass away before all those things of which they inquired should be fulfilled.
(9) DR. WILLIAM LANE CRAIG: Two generations past the time of Jesus lands you in the 2nd Century.

Thirteen Scholars: The “Race” Argument.
(1) DOUGLAS HARE: Some have argued, for example, that “this generation” refers not to Jesus’ contemporaries but to the Jewish nation or to the church. The linguistic evidence in favor of such proposals is not impressive.
(2) ALAN HUGH M’NEILE: “This generation” cannot mean the Jews as a people, believers in Christ, or the future generation that will experience these things. It must be the particular generation of Jews to whom, or of whom, the words were spoken…. It is impossible to escape the conclusion that Jesus, as Man, expected the End within the lifetime of His contemporaries.
(3) CLIFTON ALLEN: The meaning of “this generation” is much disputed. Efforts like those of Jerome, to make it mean the Jewish race, or of Origen and Chrysostom, to refer it to all Christians, are arbitrary, and are to be rejected. “This generation” refers to the contemporaries of Jesus.
(4) HEINRICH MEYER: Ver. 34. Declaration to the effect that all this is to take place before the generation then living should pass away. (It is) well-nigh absurd (the) manner in which it has been attempted to force into the word genea such meaning as: The Creation, The Human Race, The Jewish Nation, The Class of Men Consisting of My Believers, The Generation of the Elect Now in Question, The Future Generation Which is to Witness Those Events… (The Second Coming) is to occur during the lifetime of the generation then existing.
(5) R.T. FRANCE: (Genea) has been taken to mean The Jewish Race, or Unbelieving Judaism. It is unlikely that such an improbable meaning for the noun would have been suggested at all without the constraint of apologetic embarrassment…! Jesus was wrong.
(6) FLOYD FILSON: The end… will come within a generation. Attempts to translate genea as: Human Race, Jewish Race are misguided; the word refers to the generation living when Jesus spoke.
(7) P. DAVIDS, F.F. BRUCE, M. BRAUCH: This has been regarded as a hard saying…. Plainly the idea that the human race is meant cannot be entertained; every description of (the end of the world) implies that human beings will be around to witness it…. Nor is there much more to be said for the idea the Jewish race is meant; there is no hint anywhere in the New Testament that the Jewish race will cease to exist before the end of the world. In any case, what point would there be in such a vague prediction? It would be as much as to say, “At some time in the indefinite future all these things will take place.” Jesus’ hearers could have understood him to mean only that “all these things” would take place within their generation…. The phrase always means the generation now living.
(8) BIBLE COMMENTARY: …seems to require us here to translate the word genea as meaning “generation,” not, as it is sometimes rendered, race or people. (Generation) is the usual meaning.
(9) REV. PATRICK FAIRBAIRN: It has been maintained by some that… our Lord identified generation with the Jewish race…. But that is a very forced explanation; and not a single example can be produced of an entirely similar use of the word. Whatever difficulties may hang around the interpretation of that part of Christ’s discourse, it is impossible to understand by “the generation that was not to pass away” anything but the existing race of men living at the time when the word was spoken.
(10) BRUCE CHILTON: Some have sought to get around the force of (Mt. 24:34) by saying that the word generation here really means race, and that Jesus was simply saying that the Jewish race would not die out until all these things took place. Is that true? I challenge you: Get out your concordance and look up every New Testament occurrence of the word generation, and see if it ever means “race” in any other context…. Not one of these references is speaking of the entire Jewish race over thousands of years; all use the word in its normal sense of the sum total of those living at the same time. It always refers to contemporaries. In fact, those who say it means “race” tend to acknowledge this fact, but explain that the word suddenly changes its meaning when Jesus uses it in Matthew 24! We can smile at such a transparent error ….
(11) DR. ALBERT SCHWEITZER: These words (Mt. 24:34) must be strained into meaning, not that generation, but the Jewish people. Thus by exegetical art they are saved forever, for the Jewish race will never die out.
(12) REV. MILTON TERRY: The various meanings which, under the pressure of a dogmatic (crisis), have been put upon the phrase “this generation” must appear in the highest degree absurd to an unbiased critic. It has been explained (away) as meaning: The Human Race [Jerome], The Jewish Race [Dorner], The Race of Christian Believers [Chrysostom].
(13) REV. STUART RUSSELL: It has been contended by many that in (Mt 24:34) the word genea should be rendered “race” or “nation….” But we think… without any shadow of doubt that the expression “this generation” so often employed by our Lord, always refers solely and exclusively to His contemporaries, the Jewish people of His own period.

References
References for 52 Translations of Matthew 24:34.
1) New American Standard Bible, 2) The Holy Bible [Knox], 3) Concordant Literal New Testament, 4) The Modern Reader’s Bible, 5) The Complete Bible: An American Translation, 6) The New Testament [Cunnington], 7) The Emphasized New Testament, 8) The New King James Bible, 9) The New Testament in Modern English, 10) The New International Version, 11) New Revised Standard Version, 12) Revised Standard Version, 13) The New Testament [Anderson], 14) Young’s Literal Translation, 15) American Standard Version, 16) King James Version, 17) Bible in Basic English, 18) Darby Bible, 19) International Standard Version, 20) 21st Century King James Version, 21) A Literal Translation of The Bible, 22) Green’s Modern King James Version, 23) The Bible in Living English, 24) The New Jerusalem Bible, 25) The New Testament [Revised Rheims], 26) The New World Translation, 27) The New American Bible, 28) An American Translation, 29) The Riverside New Testament, 30) The New Testament [Wesley], 31) The Good News According to Matthew, 32) The New Testament in Basic English, 33) The Authentic New Testament, 34) The Corrected English New Testament, 35) The Four Gospels: A New Translation, 36) The New Testament According To The Eastern Text, 37) [A pre-published translation from the Aramaic by Alexander], 38) God’s New Covenant: A New Testament Translation, 39) Tyndale’s New Testament, 40) The Twentieth Century New Testament, 41) The New Life Testament, 42) Centenary Translation of the New Testament, 43) The Holy Bible in Modern English, 44) The Bible: A New Translation, 45) The New English Bible, 46) The New Testament in Modern Speech, 47) The Berkeley Version, 48) The Scholar’s Version, 49) Holy Bible: Contemporary English Version, 50) The Amplified New Testament, 51) The Everyday Bible, New Century Version, 52) Today’s English Version.

All of the above from Mark Smith,s website jcnot4me.com
A fantastic site indeed.

Cheers,
Markus

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 17, 2008 at 9:30 pm


Comment by Markus (Comment ID: 381165)

To Nicole,
Read above.
As Winston Churchill said:“The length of this document defends it well against the risk of its being read.”

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 17, 2008 at 9:42 pm


Comment by Nicole (Comment ID: 382031)

Markus,

I did indeed read all that you put in your reply, lenghty, but that is fine.

I must say that you have done your homework and that is commendable. However, most just say this generation, and then a few here and there, dare to elaborate on their interpretation of this scripture.

I understand that your motive is to teach me what you have found to be the truth, and I appreciate your time and effort but I suppose as I ramble on and on, as Rel so lovingly puts it, I am just fogging up the glass, so to speak.

To comment on your last reply/question, it is very clear and simple. The generation of that time, did see, on a small scale, all those things take place. Remember that Jerusalem was captured and destroyed in 70 A.D. That was the end of their world as they knew it. But that account also has a second fulfillment, the end of the world globally, not just Jerusalem’s. How do we know that? Revelation, 2 Tim, 3:1-5, 13- poor attitudes, advance from bad to worse. Psalms 37:10, 11, 28,29- Righteous will POSSESS the earth, wicked cut off. (this has not happened yet). Daniel 12:4, 9,10- True knowledge abundant, wicked will act wickedly and will not understand.

Jehovah’s day has not come yet. But it will, maybe in our life time, maybe not. But who cares? This is not the point either. The point is to love Jehovah with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Be righteous in all you do, and when you fall short, pray for forgiveness.
Jehovah spoke through Daniel about a government that he was going to set up that was going to crush and put an and to ALL other governments, indefinately. Daniel 2:44. This has not happen yet either.

I think you would do well to ask yourself what and who are you living your life for? Isn’t the point to honor our God and father by being obedient to his commandments, and exercising faith in his son, our ransom, by listening to his commands also. Jesus did away with the law, so really if we listen and practice what he preached, we are doing well. It is imparitive that you beleive in Jesus. Only his teachings hold the secret to everlasting life. Love.

I will not return to this site, so it is unnecessary to reply. But I just want to say that it is good that your are making sure of the more important things but you can’t expect that you will come to an accurate knowledge without Jehovah God’s holy spirit, as your helper. You will always get an earful of opinions and interpretations but you are going to have to rely on Jehovah’s opinion and interpretation for accuracy. James 4:7-10.

You are still in my prayers and tell Rel that he has not sinned against me, so there is no need for my forgiveness. He is in my prayers also. I hope you find true peace-of-mind, which can only be given by Jehovah God.

Agape Love,
Nicole

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 20, 2008 at 3:33 pm


Comment by Rel (Comment ID: 382040)

Nicole, As certain as I am sitting down writing this message you will be back, perhaps under a different name or just to see what our replies are. The thing is that you assume too much without certainties, without proof and that my friend is what faith is all about. You have to believe in something that was told/promised to you by your religion and blindly without a shred of evidence follow it.

You assumed that I had been disfellowshipped therefore you were not willing to talk to me. Was that a rational thing to say? What prompted you to say such a thing without evidence? No wonder you believe and say so much stuff, all without proper evidence.
This book called bible is very interesting. Everyone that reads it ends up believing something different. Why may I ask? Would that be because the WT told you so, that they are the only ones who can understand it???
If you do the proper research you will find that the WT did not have any qualified person to translate it in the first place. Will you believe the experts, or will you just put the idea aside, after all they are not jw’s so they cannot be telling the truth right??
If you don’t believe the end is not coming in our generation (as it should in generations before) why tell Christians not to have children, achieve extra school, etc…. Did you bother to watch the you tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R4f9ygxDbk Talk by Gerrit Lösch, member of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s witnesses, given in Italian during a special JW convention on May 22, 2005 in the city of Monza, near Milan, Italy. He expresses the official JW view on higher education.
It is very sad for all those who put their normal lives on hold (be fruitful and become many) to realize in later age the mistake they made for following lies from the WT.

Believe and live the life you choose, hopefully you wont be one of those who later in life wakes up and realizes a mistake that cannot be reversed.

Nicole you make me laugh when you say: “You are still in my prayers and tell Rel that he has not sinned against me, so there is no need for my forgiveness. He is in my prayers also.”
Sinned against you? Who do you think you are, god? Jesus??? I used the same expression while being a jw: “I pray for you”. God is more modernized this days, prayers cannot get to him. I only gets emails, at least that is what she (god) said on her latest email to me. Please honey open your eyes. Lack of sex is making you very naïve.

(Comments wont nest below this level)


Posted on October 20, 2008 at 4:16 pm

Reply here »
 

Comment by Markus (Comment ID: 382662)

Nicole,

Jeez I don’t know what to say. I have given you 52 translations including the NWT. Then I have given you how learned Bible scholars and other well educated and respected persons perceive this scripture; take a step back, consider what these folk are saying and start realizing.
The word Generation comes from the Greek word Genea which in case you have missed it, means people living for 20-30 Earth years. Not 20-30 JW years=6000+. This is so simple and clear.

Thanks for the compliment ‘I have done my homework’. As I said this was taken from Mark Smith’s
Website: JCnot4me.com where he did the research, and is a must see, for all fundies and non.

You may or not know that the New Testament’s earliest writings took place around 70BCE. Does this matter? A good question. I personally think it does because it blows all prophesies written in the OT, concerning how and when the messiah was to come about away.
Fact is Jesus who was born when the 3 stars called the Kings line up and point to the very bright eastern star on Dec 24 or 25 is well described in the Bible. Many other prophesied Messiahs in many cultures also were born at this period of time when this phenomena happens. All of these Messiahs had a few things in common: they all had 12 disciples or helpers, they all walked on water, all performed miracles, and they all died as Martyrs and all ascended into heaven a few days later. The Jesus story will never sound good if word gets out it is not original.
It gets more interesting, the NT was written by folk who were never alive when Jesus was alive, but I find the book or Revelation particularly interesting because it makes absolutely no sense, it was also the subject of the final debate by the Greek orthodox/ Christians or Catholics of the time, whether to be included in the approved NT books. Included it was, even although written most probably by a prison inmate who was delirious by lack of food water and sunlight. Again, if this was the origion of the writings or not, it is still regarded as inspired.

This sums up the NT. Of course we should mention that salvation comes at a price, because, guess what honey, MONEY has arrived.

Money babe. That’s what it all about, welcome to the land of the free, welcome to free speech,
welcome to making money, just remember one thing, as soon as you punch your card, you will probably find yourself in a dictatorship, no questions asked or you shall not be fired, the same goes for your WT establishment, go with the flow and no problems, try swimming upstream and you end up without a family.

If you are keen I can show you all about the JW so called non-profit organization.

The OT consists of a lot of stories: Adam and Eve, this tale is naturally very important, as your whole philosophy of inheritance of sin is based on this. The great deluge, the the book of Job (word for word), the story of Joseph, which was a plagiarised from the OT by the NT. These stories were around well BEFORE the OT writings; and yet incredulously are still considered inspired.

Visit this movie watch part 1. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1933284645315747527&ei=vfjxSO-UGJCwiAKDiu3vDg&q=zeitgeist

Why do I as an Atheist bother, is a question I am often asked? Well I hate money grabbing bastards,
I hate the JW sending you out on a very hot Sunday, getting abuse from folk worth not even a tenth
of your goodwill, I hate watching the Pope going around in his Popemobile with 4 inches bulletproof glass. I hate what he stands for, and I hate the adoration he gets.

Cheers,
Markus

(Comments wont nest below this level)


Posted on October 21, 2008 at 5:36 pm

Reply here »
 
 
 
 

Comment by Rel (Comment ID: 381209)

Nicole, there you go again rambling on and on. Where did you get the idea that I was disfelowshipped? Sorry to disappoint you but I got the balls to walk way after many years. I was getting tired of the same recycled shit provided by the WT. Sorry babe no disfelowshipped here, however I don’t see them as any lesser human beings. Couldn’t you just forgive me if I was? What about the forgiving the 77 times???

I still cannot understand how the so called “faithful ones” who are directed by the only true god can tell so many lies and make so many mistakes. Why so many changes over the years, yep that is it food at the proper time, the light getting brighter, right?

If Jehovah is not a god or grudges why then you have such grudges towards the people who decide to leave? Very confusing to me.

It is so fascinating with billions of people on the earth only a few can know and understand the bible properly. Did you ever ask yourself why would Jehovah would pick a follower for his true religion in the USA? Why the USA and not somewhere in the east. It is all about control and money.

You guys are just so naive that I believe if a WT article comes out and asks you jump the bridge you will be in paradise half of the nitwits will just do it.

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 18, 2008 at 12:20 am


Comment by Markus (Comment ID: 381457)

Hey Rel,

The JW generally stumble upon this site, and perhaps tell themselves that here is some easy picking service time, hey hey hey, gonna stay, gonna stay.
When they find out we are not as dumb as they initially thought, and when we put questions or arguments forward they cannot answer it is a case of oh oh oh oh, gotta go,gotta go.
I always wonder how they can go back to their relative societies and carry on regardless, do not the queries asked bother them, do they look for answers? I think not because if they found solutions they would be back like Flyn.

Cheers,
Markus

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 18, 2008 at 4:30 pm


Comment by Rel (Comment ID: 381466)

Markus, I believe that the witnesses who come across this site generally have some doubts and questions about the mother WT therefore end up searching the net, a thing that is very much advised against. However when they start to realize they have been wrong all those years, they are afraid of change and quickly try to preach to us very unsuccessfully. I guess they just try to reassure themselves and their faith by doing so.

The little twits seem to forget that most of us here were witnesses for many years, some of us were elders, some ministerial servants and some pioneers for many years. What do they think they can teach us? We have been there we have done that. Unless of course they just had some more new light as they call it. That light comes so often that they are all blind.

It is very easy for them to go back to their relative societies and carry on regardless. We have done that ourselves for a period of time. The only difference is that we were not afraid of change and eventually we left the lie. Unfortunately some will never have the guts to do it.
We on the other hand are not as dumb as they think for the simple reason we can think for ourselves. We can reason. They can only say what they have heard from the platform or magazines they receive, therefore not a need for them to use their brains and figure it out for themselves. That is what the WT expects of them, they just follow the parroting like a trained puppy. The brain is just like a muscle, you don’t use it you loose it.

Perhaps one day they will wake up and just like ourselves will realize what they have lost and do something about it.
PS. I wonder what the dentist is going to say after he sees that YouTube article?
Still doing plenty of fishing down under??
Rel

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 18, 2008 at 5:17 pm


Comment by Markus (Comment ID: 381664)

Real,

Yip, things are pretty good here thanks for asking. Fishing down here is great. Had kids here last July went shore fishing, still saving for a boat I do not believe in buying on credit, that’s me.
Looks like 250K has flown the coup, so to speak. I sincerely hope we left enough doubts in his mind as to the ridiculous movement they defend so much.

I wish my own family would bump into this site and debate with me without them knowing it is me. I cannot do this in real life as I don’t live in the same country as them, but even if I did, they refuse to argue, end of story.

Cheers,
Markus

(Comments wont nest below this level)


Posted on October 19, 2008 at 3:02 pm


Comment by Rel (Comment ID: 381670)

Yep, buying on too much credit has left this economy in very bad shape.

After that youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R4f9ygxDbk Talk by Gerrit Lösch, member of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s witnesses, given in Italian during a special JW convention on May 22, 2005 in the city of Monza, near Milan, Italy. He expresses the official JW view on higher education.

I don’t think we will see 250k again. I don’t know about you but that clearly states that if one is in college one should meditate a bout leaving. The slave discourages from going to college. Praised those in the audience who dropped out of college after accepting truth. Praise those listening about making the same decision. Instead of higher education go field service.
I really really would like to have a dentist response on this matter. I think he is too busy fixing the dentures of jws

All the best



Posted on October 19, 2008 at 4:08 pm

 

Comment by Fri (Comment ID: 381961)

Dentist, where are you???? Did Gerrit Lösch, member of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s witnesses talk stumble you my friend????
Hope you did not have a heart attach??????



Posted on October 20, 2008 at 12:57 pm

 

Comment by Fri (Comment ID: 382195)

Dentist, come on out wherever you are ho ho.



Posted on October 20, 2008 at 10:18 pm

 
Reply here »
 
 
 
 
 
 

Comment by Nicole (Comment ID: 380096)

It is very clear that many of you have a history with Jehovah’s Witnesses, and to say the least, a complaint or two.

It is also very clear that your vindication and relief from such twisted and irrational beliefs has left you very content. This is a bit of sarcasm. I would think that your eye opening experiences would lead to many blessings from God, for making the right choice in your reasonings. However, it appears that you have been left with many unanswered questions, even to go as far as discrediting Jesus and God himself.

This truly saddens me and I would love to do all I can to answer any questions you may have but I cannot and will not, if your motive is to attack and destroy. God is love, and if it comes from God the motive is love and upbuildment, not hate and bitterness.

Let’s take one thing at a time.

Magazine sales:

For many years they referred to their distribution of literature as “selling.” But this terminology caused some confusion, and so beginning in 1929, it was gradually dropped. The term did not really fit their activity, for their work was not commercial. Their objective was not money-making. Their entire motivation was to preach the good news of God’s Kingdom. Because of this, in 1943 the Supreme Court of the United States held that Jehovah’s Witnesses could not be required to obtain a commercial peddling license before distributing their literature.

From this time onward, literature was placed on a voluntary donation basis.

However, in 1990, The Governing Body directed that in the United States, all literature that the Witnesses distribute—Bibles, as well as tracts, booklets, magazines, and bound books explaining the Bible—be provided to people on the sole precondition that they read it, no contribution being suggested. The activity of Jehovah’s Witnesses is in no way commercial, and this arrangement served to further differentiate them from religious groups that commercialize religion. Of course, most people are aware that it costs money to print such literature, and those who appreciate the service being performed by the Witnesses may want to donate something to help with the work. It is explained to such persons that the worldwide work of Bible education conducted by Jehovah’s Witnesses is supported by voluntary donations. Donations are gladly accepted, but they are not solicited.

Consider the FREE-home bible studies that are at no cost to the one who is studying, but, instead the study conductor foots the bill, personally, for gas, ect…This is done out of love. This is the ultimate goal for placing the literature, is to get people to study the bible, for free. This does not financially benefit the organization, so wouldn’t this arrangement be a means of self defeat?

I can assure you that most witnesses nowadays, including myself, do not mention a voluntary donation. Not unless the person has offered or has become a regular recipient, do they become aware of a voluntary donation. Why? Because we just want people to open their eyes and ears to the fast-approaching solution. Again, out of love for people, not money.

Can you think of another way to preach the same message of God’s kingdom, to the entire planet, and be sure that every single person alive will understand that same message in their own language? How would you do it?

Matthew 24:14- and this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come.

Agape Love,
Nicole

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 15, 2008 at 6:22 pm

 

Comment by Nicole (Comment ID: 380137)

I am sorry to hear that your wife’s parents were so strict with her as a child. I have 3 kids, boys infact and they are active. I allow them to get up for brief periods to use the bathroom or just stretch their legs. Each and every parent has their own ideas on how they want their children to be obedient and attentive. Some are more strict than others. However, this should only be a direct reflection on the parent and not of an entire organization. That seems very discriminatory.

Apostasy was foretold, and from historical records, non-religious, it was very clear in some areas where and when that became infiltrated. However, other areas were not so clear.

This does not sound as though it is your argument. It sounds as though you have lost your faith in Jesus and God? Am I correct in assuming this? Or do you just have a personal vendetta against Jehovah’s Witnesses?

The tone you set is a very bitter one. Is there anything I can do?

Agape Love,
Nicole

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 15, 2008 at 8:03 pm


Comment by Anonymous (Comment ID: 380144)

Just for clarification the comment directly above, regarding my kids was directed to Rel.

I guess I will specify next time.

Nicole

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 15, 2008 at 8:10 pm

 

Comment by Rel (Comment ID: 380282)

Yes, Nicole I just have a personal vendetta against Jw’s. I am a bitter person, and because I no longer am a jw I guess that makes me a very bad person too, right? You on the other hand since you are a jw you are a very good fearing Christian, all jw’s are, righ?

Yes, my dear there is something you can do for me:
1, please no longer come to the so called apostate websites, bad associations spoil useful habits.
2, Please do not count the time spent here on your October field service report.
3, Most important of all please do remove your head from the helder’s asses, you will see better and think much clear.

Ps. If you do a little bit more research (not the crap they print in the magazines) you will find out that the reason for the society no longer selling the magazines and going to the donation plan was to avoid paying the taxes that were imposed. I was a witness for many years, I know all about it.

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 16, 2008 at 2:24 am


Comment by Rel (Comment ID: 380283)

Nicole,

Avoiding Taxes Watchtower Style
Since 1990, the Jehovah’s Witnesses in the USA have been able to receive all their literature free of charge and do not ask to specific contributions from householders as they distribute these. In other countries this does not apply.

The following letter was sent to all congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the US announcing the new donation arrangement (i.e. no longer is a specific amount of money asked in return for literature. Critics charge the WTBTS with trying to evade taxes by instituting this arrangement.) A few things to notice about this are:

1) Noticibly absent is any mention of the events that led to this arrangement, i.e. the court ruling against Jimmy Swaggart’s ministry, saying that it can be taxed.

2) There is a not so subtle veiled request for money, though now it is not a requirement. (Was this is the way out of getting taxed)

3) This was enthusiastically accepted by JWs who were uncomfortable with asking for money in exchange for literature and felt like salespersons. P> 4) There was a negative impact on the finances of pioneers (full-time JW ministers), since with the old arrangement the pioneers were allowed to keep a substantial part of the money received.

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 16, 2008 at 2:31 am

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Comment by Diamond Engagement Rings (Comment ID: 345321)

That was a great post. I will have to bookmark this site so I can read more later.

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on August 21, 2008 at 8:35 pm

 

Comment by Jewish Conversion (Comment ID: 343394)

You bring up a very resonant topic that causes (understandable) controversy depending where one stands on the issue. I like how you presented both sides of the argument, essentially pointing out that there is no easy way to resolve this topic easily and without much personal discovery.

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on August 12, 2008 at 9:11 pm

 

Comment by kristen (Comment ID: 192677)

so why is it not a forbidden custom to wear rings when it used to be a pagan practice, but it is forbidden to celebrate holidays such as one’s birthday?

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on March 20, 2007 at 6:20 am


Comment by Anonymous (Comment ID: 254395)

Good point. We could also ask, why do they lump all holidays together. While xmas and halloween and such holidays are clearly pagan in origin, July 4th and Thanksgiving most certainly are not. What Biblical bases could they have for forcing avoidance of such great American days representing freedom we have in this country?

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on August 5, 2007 at 3:57 am


Comment by Nicole (Comment ID: 380113)

As a witness, I would just like to answer your question regarding the observance of Thanksgiving and 4th of July.

Thanksgiving:

In the year 1620, a small English colony was established on the edge of a vast and hostile wilderness. During the first winter they lost nearly half their number due to disease and severe weather. Autumn of 1621, however, saw a good corn crop. Therefore, a holiday—a three-day festival—was declared.

The colony was comprised of a religious group known as the Saints, and other residents whom the Saints called the Strangers.

It has frequently been the custom for clergymen to preach political sermons on Thanksgiving Day.

This holiday has a very religious undertone and the exact reason for this 3-day celebration turning into a yearly observance is unknown. However, neither is it important. It is a man-made holiday that has lost it’s significance, if it’s yearly significance was to ever be found in the first place.

In much of the United States, Thanksgiving Day is the beginning of the Christmas season—a ‘holiday period’ extending through New Year’s Day, January 1. So Thanksgiving becomes the signal for the commercial world to press for what is called the ‘buying binge.’

Further, for many the day is becoming one for ‘saturating’ the public with sports events.

Some witnesses may choose to spend this day with their family because it is a day off for them. However, they will not convey to others the idea that they believe in one-day-a-year gratitude.

July 4th:

Matthew 5:43-48- “YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.

Simply put, this holiday promotes division, contention, and an ungodly spirit. It is a celebration of a fake liberation and leads people into thinking that their government is their savior and has God’s backing. This could not be farther from the truth.

The fireworks are neat but they are nothing more than a reenactment of war, which is not neat or acceptable.

Jesus said to be no part of the world and we take that seriously.

Agape Love,
Nicole

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on October 15, 2008 at 7:15 pm


Comment by RB (Comment ID: 408681)

How can simple celebration led to one thinking that their government is a savior? And bye the way can a JW explain two things to me? First of all explain away the 10yr relationship with the UN.Only denounced by the WBTS when it became public.Secondly how do they explain using quotes by a noted spritualist by the name of Jonas Greber of John 1:1

Reply to this Comment »


Posted on December 2, 2008 at 11:00 pm

 
 
 
 

Leave a comment

Don't forget to fill in the following Anti-Spam-Word* before you press the submit-button:

*This action is intended to prove that you are a human being and not some kind of robot spamming this site with advertisements.

Click here for a list of Recent Comments on other Articles