2004: Jehovah's Witnesses still on the watch for the end of this world
The 21th century is already the third century in which Jehovah’s Witnesses expect the end of this world. Every year the Watchtower Society publishes a Yearbook with a Yeartext. The Yeartext for 2004 is:
“Keep on the Watch… Prove Yourselves Ready.” – Matthew 24:42,44
This Yeartext is accompanied with the following remarks:
“Consistently, God’s Word reminds us that Jehovah’s day will arrive with shocking suddenness. Hence, our yeartext for 2004 reflects Jesus’ deep love for his disciples, whom he wants to preserve through “the great tribulation.” (Rev. 7:14 ) How do we remain spiritually watchful and ready? By allowing nothing to distract us from our study of God’s Word and from our privileges of sacred service.”
Six succeeding generations of Jehovah’s Witnesses have expected that the day of Jehovah will arrive with ‘shocking suddenness’. Again and again the Witnesses are pressed to remain ‘watchful and ready’. Here are some quotes from 19the century Watchtower publications:
“In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved.” (1889 – Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. II)
“And, with the end of A.D. 1914, what God calls Babylon , and what men call Christendom, will have passed away, as is already shown from prophecy.” (1897 – Studies In The Scriptures, Vol. III)
But all the governments were not dissolved in 1914 and Christendom was still alive. After the miscalculation of 1914 the Witnesses thought that 1915 would bring the end of this world:
“The Gentile Times prove that the present governments must all be overthrown about the close of A.D. 1915; and Parallelism above shows that this period corresponds exactly with the year A.D. 70, which witnessed the completion of the downfall of the Jewish polity.” (1915 Edition – The Time Is At Hand)
It is a little tedious to enumerate all Watchtower quotations concerning the upcoming end that appeared in magazines and books after 1914. The destruction of governments and/or Christendom was predicted for the following years:
•1918 End of Gentile times, Christendom to be destroyed.
•1920 “ Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy” .
•1925 Faithful men of the Old Testament were to return and the establishment of the Kingdom in Palastine .
•1932 Christendom to be overthrown.
•1975 Armageddon.
•<2000 Armageddon before the turn of the century
Because the great motivator behind the proselyting activity of Jehovah’s Witnesses is the ‘upcoming end’, the Watchtower Society will continue to stimulate its followers with Yeartexts, articles and public talks. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the only chance for salvation is to actively preach the end of this world and the Kingdom of God . If they are not busy with their ‘sacred service’ when the ‘day of Jehovah’ will arrive with ‘shocking suddenness’ they believe that they will die with the wicked ones.
“Keep on the Watch… Jehovah’s Witnesses will predict the end of this world till the end of this world…”
BY RADO VLEUGEL
A question to all JW. Who is the rider on the horse in revelation that is in white with a crown? NOT CHRIST! Jesus himself identified him! The revelation book uses terms like “likely – assuredly – from this we can conclude”- etc. these are not terms of knowledge that one is certain of. This is a statement of possible understanding of information in the scriptures. No prophet ever changed interpretation. Example King of the North & South. As brother Losche stated in his talk. “We do not know who it is now” 2009 Hawaii convention. (I have a copy of the talks) (He is next in line to run the organization) Words like “it used to be” is not NEW LIGHT.
Where does Jehovah exist? NOT in Heaven! When Jehovah ended Singular Existence & brought the Only-Begotten into existence what other things happened? Clue. 1. The Logos / Only-Begotten/ Christ came to exist. 2. Gods Will became active. You call it His active force. Some call it the Holy Spirit How about calling it what it is ” Gods Will in Action.” Before making a Free-Willed Conscious Choice to end Singular Existence God / Jehovah as you call His name did NOTHING! His Will was to do nothing! He did Nothing! This is not demeaning to Him, just a fact of logic. NOW answer the question. What was the 3rd thing that came to exist? Once you know the answer a wealth of understanding will appear!
The Passover date jumped in 2009. You observed it on the correct date!! But do you know why? Also Jehovah keeps a perfect time clock. He left a clue as to when the end would come. Moses was told the answer! If one is searching for answers to dates & prophecy & understanding who better to ask when His Will is to take place then the one who set the clock in motion? The answer is in every translation of the Bible including the New World Translation. Along with most books Koran etc. HE said it very clearly! If you want these answers send mail to godlovsu@ptd.net
Ps: NOTHIN provided will offend ANY JW teachings! If you find any then the information will be corrected. You can send it to the Society headquarters for them to search! They may not allow you to look at other information, but they look because they quote others information.
This is not a challenge or attack on any religion. The Faith that JW’s exhibit is admirable and an example that all who believe in God should follow. HOWEVER we should be like Paul & reason as he did. Paul was the only person to challenge Jewish laws that even Jesus Christ (flesh) did not challenge while in the flesh. Paul Killed Christians then went to the remaining apostles to show them NEW LIGHT. Imaging if he was alive today. If he killed some of the anointed ones of the governing body then went to Bethel to talk with the remaining governing body to show them that there was NEW LIGHT, what would they do? He was like the Pope is today. If the Pope showed up at Bethel after having killing JW’s & the apostles then said, “you are teaching incorrectly.” Would the governing body listen? After all the apostles had 1st hand experience of the Holy Spirit. One final note. As a wittiness of God & Christ you are obligated to show me the truth since I am a fellow searcher like you. BUT you are obligated like the Boreans & Paul to reason things out logically. The apostles changed their old light when NEW LIGHT was logically presented. The apostles would have let you talk & reason with Paul and act upon what was presented. Much more could be said but the future is up to you & the Will of Jehovah. Sincerely GodLovesU
interessssting…
To : 256630.
Well here we have it again folks, blame Satan, the poor scapegoat, for without which the existence of, most religions would fall apart. No one would even consider blaming Biblegod, who after all had the insight to create Satan and evil, by his own admission. “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil I the LORD do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)
Here are some actions of the Deity whose ass you kiss:
Though he said “Thou shalt not kill,” he ordered death for all opposition, wholesale drowning and mass exterminations (How many infants and children were killed by God in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? How many infants and children were killed by God during the “Great” flood?); punishing offspring to the fourth generation (Ex. 20:5); ordering pregnant women and children to be ripped up (Hos. 13:16); demanding animal and human blood to appease his angry vanity; is partial to one race of people; judges women to be inferior to men; is a sadist who created a hell to torture unbelievers; discriminated against the handicapped (Lev. 21:18-23); ordered virgins to be kept as spoils of war (Num. 31:15-18, Deut. 21:11-14); sent bears to devour 42 children who teased a prophet (II Kings 2:23-24); punished people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide; and said fathers should eat their sons (Ez. 5:10).
Not bad for a squeaky clean god eh, and you think Satan is the evil one. How many young children died? They must die you will say because they inherit their fathers sin, just as we inherited Adam’s original sin. Now read Deuteronomy 24:16 where the contrary is taught.
You Jehovah’s Witnesses make me sick. You believe the NWT is the most accurate version of the Bible because you are told it is, and if you dare to do any research to prove or disprove this you will be counselled
against using your own brain. You sorry lot are so brainwashed you do not even realise it, you are making your precious WTBT society rich and you believe you are doing good, as long as you do not start thinking for yourself you will be held in good standing.
Your society has come up with many dates referring to the end of the world, your excuse is “we were mistaken, but at least we are trying or how about the ‘new light’ theory”, so how come you do not re-imberse the faithful who sold their homes, who allowed their children to die, for refusing inoculations, who refused pensions and are now forced to eat dog food?
Here is a scripture you can put in your pipe and smoke:
“However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak… that prophet must die. …How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken? When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak”. Deuteronomy 18: 20-22, taken from your own translation. (Note the must die part).
Why don’t you study the Bible not from within but use external sources it is so easy with the internet nowadays? Why don’t you one day batten down the hatches so no eves dropping brother or sister can report you; and do some real studying.
You will find amazing things such as the fables of Adam and Eve, and the great deluge not being unique to the Bible, in fact you will find earlier versions, not
exactly the same but similar enough to realize that plagiarism is indeed present.
Do a Google on the historical existence of Jesus, you will find to your dismay a remarkable absence of his mention at all, truly incredible it has to be said, for someone who had such a following; the miniscule amount there is, has clear evidence of original historical manuscripts being forged, probably by the early Catholic clergy, who like you do not have a religion without Jesus; and no religion = no money.
Read the articles on this site, you will find all kinds of interesting articles like how Charles T. Russell used the pyramids to calculate the end happening in 1874, later revised to 1914. If you think these articles are biased or false in any way I assure you they are not, but don’t take my word for it get off your ass and do your own research.
Please do not come on this site and tell me how to live my life when you do not even have a clue what life is.
You are taught not to think but how to think, the young third Reich Hitler youths had the same indoctrination.
Many of us on this site are ex JW, and the main reason for this is we decided to study the Bible as opposed to be told what to study in the Bible.
Cheers,
Markus
“Reap What Sow”
Perhaps if you read your Bible and blamed the right dupe for all the starving kids in Sudan on the “rider of the pale faced horse or black horse in Revelation”, then you may have blamed the right dupe. By the way the White Horse is riden by Christ Jesus he’s going to round up those jupe’s soon along with all those slandering his name. Happy hunting the one on the White horse in removing the reproach form God’s name for being blamed unjustly! It is not time for Christ to act but when he does it will be swift!
Satan the adversery is responsible for those suffering in all countries Christ is going to put an end to the root when he locks the old dragan in the abbs!
He’s then going to administer the blessings to all those that have been illtreated against God’s Commands and hold those responsibile accountable!
It is fine if in the meantime someone may be in a position to give relief but according to each ones means. It is also the choice of all persons how they spend their own monies and not to judge your fellow man. For instance one person may want to expend their money on “extensive internet Usage” but fail to spend that portion upon giving to those needy children in Sudan, true?
The other may likewise expend a portion upon the Internet and also a portion elswhere like the first person also may expend a further portion of his money elsewhere. Does that mean that the first may critisis the second? Never may that happen because that is a form of coveting roundly condemned in God’s Word. ALso in modern terms rights of each one to decide for ones self and if you personally have a desire to give more “who is holding you back”. Remeber the wealthy nations have enough food to feed the starving but they hold back so why judge your neighbour would you want them to judge you surley not so if you want to give, give silently!
?The web sight appears to make issue of the fact Jehovah’s Witnesses have been highlighting “to keep on the watch…prove yourself ready” in harmony with the scripture in Matthew 24 and certain changed viewpoints over the years as some how demonstrating that Jehovah’s Witnesses in those matters are at fault for attempting to put meaning into scripture at those times when those interpretations were given. It also seems a “spin from that is taken to disbelieve to not keep on the watch and prove yourself ready” is the motive for ridiculer’s.
Granted their has been error’s as pointed out but in all fairness a critical thinker could easily state well putting yourself back in time to say pre-1900 and then see if you would have predicted “1914 as a marked year” for world shattering events to have taken place?
It if possible to re-enact would find those most vocal attempting to make fun of such predictions as erroneously inapt at doing any better as a most probable outcome. What need not be lost sight of was the early Bible students could see from the dating scriptures and Jesus sign of his presence and the conclusion of this system of things prophecy at Luke 12 that it from the “world at that time and from their concept of time appeared to be the beginning of the end and that things once commenced would follow each other in quick succession.
So the year was right 1914 “for world catastrophic events to occur” but their expectations of what would unfold at that time were misleading because Jesus said that “it would be the beginning of pains of distress” not the end of those pains see Matthew 24 verse 8 “not the finish”. At that time they did not have Almighty God’s entire view but to reverse any critics it “did prove a time to be ready” at least for the commencement of the sign proving they were receptive to what the Bible had at that time allowed them to see along with other Adventist Bible followers all at that time were watching and attempting to interpret the meaning.
No one can dispute the commencement date was correct given the fact it corresponds correctly with the outbreak of “World War 1″, of “nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom” verse 7. Further in response that “Jehovah’s Witnesses will predict the end of this world until the end of this world” is “spot on”. The reason is simply in that prophecy Jesus did say that “this generation will not pass away until all these things occur” highlights a few things. One that by stating a “generation will not pass away until all these things occur” is implying a long period of time would pass from the sign of Christ’s presence in 1914 until his return in Kingdom Glory and Power to reform the entire Earth under God’s Kingdom Rule.
Secondly the scripture in Peter outlined in reference to this event of Divine Intervention that a “day with Jehovah is a thousand years” just merely to emphasis Jehovah God’s view of time but then narrow the application with contextual words indicating a “time period would pass” by linking that with “as some think he is slow” hence harmonizing with Jesus “generation time period” that a long time would pass but not beyond the generation that saw events of 1914 symbolically hence the continued emphasis on “proving yourself ready is paramount”.
Whilst the generation that saw 1914 is very nearly passed away heightens the urgency! By proving yourself ready to the time prophecy is vital!
Each year that goes by must be getting very close and even in that prophecy at Matthew 24 verse 36 it clearly states that only God himself only no the actual date of intervention. So hence any ill directed attack against Witnesses is highlighting narrow mindedness and not sighting those scriptures that those “other predictions” are human error not God’s and must be treated as such and correctly so the Witnesses are constantly reminded to “prove yourself ready”. Which person is faultless judge others?
Hence the point is made the “Bible is not contradictory” even if some may speculate on dates. Rember only God knows “day and hour”, of intervention.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are not immune from getting some things wrong needing re-view but as have shown they have consistently maintained that 1914 was a “marked year” proven correct. Hence “time of End closer now”.
The above only assists others to see the “key prophecies of God’s will are imitate to be for- filled in our generation”. The question is how many readers want to be their when God Intervenes in man’s affairs and takes over rulership of the Earth of Mankind on his terms not ours? First all critics have a bleak future to attempt to talk back to God the life breath giver.
Make no mistake he does not need us but we need him to forgive our sins through Christ. We also need to be doing what God Requires of us on arrival. By exercising “faith and doing God’s will” may gain approval by God.
True in the event that the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses may have any case to answer then Jehovah God will hold them accountable. Please do not loss sight of the accountability of all of mankind because if “judgement starts with the house of God” Bethel Jehovah’s Witnesses Headquarters means “house of God” where will all these readers get a showing?
Tread carefully in critizing Jehovah’s Witnesses take the “mirror out and lock at yourself”? By doing an Act of kindness to Christ Brothers is rewarded according to Matthew 25 verse 37-45 in event some are so?
Theirs an “old proverb” “he that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall”! Also if “errors is what God looks at who could stand”?
In Bible book of Peter it outlined that “Ridiculars would come Ridiculing from their own desires stating where is his presence mocking the message bearer in effect”, hence has not the article given fertile fuel for such ‘Ridicule’ but do not loss sight that “such Ridicule may” actually “be for filling God’s Word” by those whom choose to Ridicule Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The scripture states “he that does the will of God remains forever” and added to this as pointed out above “Jehovah’s Witnesses will continue to predict end until it does come” , so “prove yourself ready for that end”!
?Your comment seems to imply that certain ones “cannot make sense of God’s Word”. You earlier quoted seemingly from “God’s Word” when you said “why don’t you climb down from the cross” .
A man of God does not have to argue, merely reprove from scripture. Hence as it seems likely that you do not use Jehovah’s Witnesses Bible “The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures”, will for your benefit quote an interesting scripture in relation to your comment implying Jesus was hung upon a “Cross”. According to the King James Version authorized to be read in Churches the scripture at Acts 5 verse 30 sheds “light”. It states “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree”. You note Jesus was hanged upon a “TREE” rather than a “Cross”.
The historic record an archeology prove that in the first century time when Christ was put to death supports that they hung people of “Stakes or single pole tree trunks” not two pieces of wood at angles to one another. That is why Watchtower magazines portray Jesus as hanging upon a single “Tree” or “Stake”. Further the historians in checking the Original King James Bible have found in the order of 20,000 mistakes in translation from the original text. However this does not impede a Bible student that cross-references and proof test reads the scriptures in getting the “real meaning”. I raise this point merely as “You finished your posting by stating implying Witnesses “that they have read much but understand nothing”.
Hence respectfully perhaps it is yourself “that has read much but understand [dare I say it] understand nothing”. Just for the record the King James Bible in most other places has the word “Cross” in other passages however the original manuscripts and archeology findings link “Crosses to pagans and especially to the earlier kingdom of “Babylon” in Iraq.
That is why Revelation speaking in symbolic language chapter 17 referring to the “Harlot” which symbolically means religion unfaithful to God’s Word by “mixing religion with attempting to influence politics” depicts the “world empire of false religions that have have undertones of pagan symbolism in their forms of worship”. Hence “Crosses in Churches” assist those understanding their Bibles to identify those false religions a part of Babylon.
It is also noted that “those religions and their adherents” attempt to “symbolically kill those bearing witnesses to Jesus” see Revelation 17 verse 6. Jehovah’s Witnesses do bear witness to Jesus less the “Crosses”. Perhaps this may assist you to retract your unfounded view in relation to “whom may understand much” to lift “yourself from understanding little,” to “something.” Your words seem to be symbolic attack against witnesses.
Perhaps rather than focus on Jehovah’s Witnesses you may care to see that Revelation 18:4 is attempting to encourage yourself to get out of “Babylon the Great” representing the world empire of these false religions linking to pagan symbolism and seek assistance from some courteous Jehovah’s Witnesses when they next call they will be more than happy to assist you.
The Bible says the “one being reproved does not like the one reproving them” in Proverbs but also states “the one that is wise will listen to counsel”.
To certain ones,
?Re-viewing certain comments it reminds of the scriptural account of how the “demon possessed people followed Jesus around” and at times Jesus had to “put up with the demons speaking to him from the person whom they had control over”. On other occasions “demon possessed persons sort healing”.
The account showed Jesus had little time for “demons” and on one occasion reproved “satan the leader of the demons” not once but three times stating “go away it is written” quoting from the scriptures on each time and eventually “satan left to a more convenient time”.
As Jesus set the “pattern for us to follow” certain repeat persons after three times reproving them from scripture simply ignore them as unintelligent especially if they are ex-Jehovah’s witlessness for in event they continue to follow certain God fearing persons around then Jesus teachings were to Separate effectively and in thus symbolically telling them to “GO AWAY”!
Any person whom has studied the Bible sees the methods of “demons use of people under their influence”. Jesus only assisted those seeking his help by which he used the “Spirit force” to expel those persons demons, and immediately they were expelled the person was cured indicating what it will be like in God’s Kingdom were righteousness is to dwell.
Their in “lies the test”, if a person chooses to ignore God’s Conditions for salvation by exercising “faith in the provisions for life everlasting” then they only have themselves to blame as unintelligent persons behaving like animals pursuant to the description in the book of James and certain persons may well have demonstrated their likeness to animals in their comments unintelligent lacking “Human qualities having been Created in God’s Image via our forefather Adam”. Jesus also said if people are undeserving “dust of your feet and walk away” you are not to continue unproductive conversations but reprove with severity!
The commission is to preach the “Good News of the Kingdom” to remove pain and suffering on the terms and conditions outlined within the scriptures for all honest hearted ones to respond in “sincerity of heart and dedicate themselves to do God’s Will”. If people do not want to respond and only seek to belittle you for any assistance one may offer then that is there choice. It follows likewise them having made that decision for a “witnesses to symbolically dust off their feet” and move on to “those deserving and separate from bad association” and “goat will remain a goat” because they show no indication of repentance.
On the other hand in Jesus day those having “demon problems” that sort help exercising faith got healed. The powers of using the Spirit for healing the scriptures prove has finished. Hence all those that have witnessed such healings in our day are actually witnessing the power of demons mimic-ing Jesus using their spirit force to mislead unsuspecting ones to mislead.
It appears a certain one claims to be an ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses and uses “loose conduct” a thing that does not befit holy people according to scriptures hence Paul took the disciples and separate from those undeserving so as those “eye witnesses could see those were unapproved from God’s viewpoint”. Jehovah God will execute judgement not man so their argument is with God himself not man and yet the scripture states the “demons no there is a God and they shudder”. The “demons no their time is up”. They are active every where since losing the battle in heaven. The scriptures indicate they will attempt to mislead even the chosen ones.
Eve sinned “because she kept listening to satan” using the serpent as a mouth peace. So why keep listening to any person whom chooses to disobey God’s Word and not seek help to free themselves from demons rather than demonstrate they seek no assistance by keeping to reply to such ones. Jesus set pattern simply said “go away satan it is written”, hence if persons do not want Bible answers to their questions you effectively are at the wrong place “Go Away”. Jesus warned their “would be mockers like in Noah’s day” and they “took no note”, “untill the Divine judgement arrived”, then, “they took note it implies”, but it was to late they lost their lives “their choice”!
wow! I haven’t seen a reply in ages! Yet the same thing happens when people don’t have the decency to check on the postings and stuff that were written before *sigh*. My recommendation to “otto marconi”, dude, read all the other postings that were posted at the bottom, and at the top, and then if you have something useful to say, post it. Take care, and hope you have a nice day.
Grace be with you,
Luis.
1 John 5:10
The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
to Luis,
again like all christians you really disappoint.
At the end of your reply above you quote the scripture about the pharisees asking for a sign.
Well, Markus wasn’t asking for a sign, but analyzing miracles he’s spotted some blatant incongruencies. People who question jesus’ reported miracles do not ask for a sign: when do you religionists stop attaching meaning and intentions onto those who challenge you?
For example, do you remember the short story ‘Reanimator’ by HP Lovecraft? Well in this story the doctor/scientist tried to re-animate humans and animals. But he could only re-animate only those animals and humans whose death had occured only hours earlier, so very very fresh corpses.
Jesus was the same: he would only resurrect “fresh corpses”, NEVER people who had been dead for years or whose body had completely dissolved. Why?
I think for the same reason no missing limb has been seen growing back again during any modern-day miracle-event…till -as Markus wrote- they get to do that too and bamboozle more suckers still.
And if jesus is so willing to do this good why doesn’t he eliminate all evil and sorrow once and for all instead of such dubious piece-meal fashion?
If men and women are all the same why favour some only?
Because they have more faith? Well where was the faith of those supposedly dead he resurrected? Their parents faith? A proxy-faith?
And wouldn’t have been more powerful and especially more loving to actually heal also unbelievers?
When I was a JW the more I read the bible the more questions arose, and I know no logic answer will ever come. Not to mention the dismay and abhorrence I developed due to the explicit and implicit meanings and implications of the bible “teaching”.
That’s why if you come my place you’ll see copies of the bible in my bathroom which we regularly use when we run out of the more useful and soft regular toilet paper. No kidding.
the 2nd posting is more complete, I accidentaly hit the button “submit comment” before I was going to be adding little details (you can compare them if you want)
Ok, ok, gotta go, byebye.
Grace be with you,
Luis
Wow, it’s been quite long since someone replied. Anyway, to c.w.payne. It’s true what you say, that we can point to creation and all of the nice remarks you mention, but there’s one thing dude, and let’s analize it, shall we? Everything that you see around you, the whole creation in itself is cursed (Genesis 3) so if you think that’s the best proof that God exists, without going to Scriptures, it’s sad to say, but it’s a “no”. Now, you may wonder “what is this guy saying?” Ok, well, as you can see, God is Perfect, hence, He made everything perfect to begin with (Genesis 1), no death, no suffering, nothing going on there. But because of man’s disobedience the whole thing went “boom!” and the whole thing started. Sadly, everything that you see now is unfortunately messed up (there’s still evidence of beauty but not perfection), because of the consequences of sin, until everything is restored the way it was in the beginning, that’s how it is. So to use everything around me to prove that God exists it would be to prove a god with errors, which will contradict God’s Perfection. And to top it off, read what it says on Psalm 19:7. Just to clarify something, I’m not trying to win, because nothing comes from me or my opinions since they’re worthless in the end. Remember, my duty is not to convince anyone, the Truth is there, you either believe it or deny it, you follow it or give your back to it, so don’t try to say “I think that you were just longer winded than Markus. But you didn’t win.” When did I give the impression that I wanted to win, on the contrary, for me, to live is Jesus and to die is gain. If the Truth was given to me, a worthless sinner, yet be able to put my trust on someone who is the Truth, and be saved, why not pass the message and share this Faith with others? What would’ve happened if the person who found the cure for polio kept it a secret and died with it? The answer is obvious. Well, I gotta go nighty night, it’s 2:30am and my eyes are closing. Take care and ttyl.
Grace be with you,
Luis.
P.S. Just a quick follow up, if you really want to understand the deeper things from God and His Word, why don’t you start from the basics? A good mathematician said “Don’t try to do mathematical analysis when you don’t even understand adding, substraction, multiplication and division.” Meditate on that dudes.
1 Corinthians 9:16
For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!
To Luis.
I hear you saying ” the Bible is the only proof of God. I guess you are refering to the Israelites’ Yahweh /Jehovah. Yet this God is mentioned in pagan Canaanite mythology which pre-dates the Bible.
Wow, it’s been quite long since someone replied. Anyway, to c.w.payne. It’s true what you say, that we can point to creation and all of the nice remarks you mention, but there’s one thing dude, and let’s analize it, shall we? Everything that you see around you, the whole creation in itself is cursed (Genesis 3) so if you think that’s the best proof that God exists, without going to Scriptures, it’s sad to say, but it’s a “no”. Now, you may wonder “what is this guy saying?” Ok, well, as you can see, God is Perfect, hence, He made everything perfect to begin with (Genesis 1), no death, no suffering, nothing going on there. But because of man’s disobedience the whole thing went “boom!” and the whole thing started. Sadly, everything that you see now is unfortunately messed up (there’s still evidence of beauty but not perfection), because of the consequences of sin, until everything is restored the way it was in the beginning, that’s how it is. So to use everything around me to prove that God exists it would be to prove a god with errors, which will contradict God’s Perfection. And to top it off, read what it says on Psalm 19:7. I gotta go night night, it’s 2:30am and my eyes are closing. Take care and ttyl.
Grace be with you,
Luis.
P.S. Just a quick follow up, if you really want to understand the deeper things from God and His Word, why don’t you start from the basics? A good mathematician said once “Don’t try to do mathematical analysis when you don’t even understand adding, substraction, multiplication and division.” Meditate on that dudes.
Luis.
I think that you were just longer winded than Markus. But you didn’t win. You’re a great Bible Thumper back lack wisdom. Markus asked you to prove there is a GOD with out using the Bible. You made comment like ” that would be like playing baseball without a bat “. Can’t be a game without a bat is like, can’t be a GOD without the Bible. If you had knowledge you would have directed his attention to the creation. The Cosmos including all things that make it is far greater proof that The Omnipotent, All Powerful and Almighty Divine exists. Not the Bible. As a mater of fact it is the only proof and the only proof needed. But of all things created by GOD, the most important proof is Markus himself along with You and I and all mankind. We are the proof…. The Bible does report Gods that personify different ideologies of man, and Luis, ’bout the only thing they create is discorse, strife and false gods. Hate, jealousy and wars.
The best to you
markus, if I had all the answers, I would be God, and that’s not true. Elliot has a very good answer (you should read it) so obviously if you have the chance to help, why deny the help? Though you can share the gospel with those poor people, you can also give them financial help, that’s something that we should all do. Ok, gotta go, take care dude (I notice you have another nick as well, but it ain’t important, just wanted to let you know I noticed)
Grace be with you,
Luis.
Poverty is a concequence of sin. It is neither caused by God, nor the devil, but by us, all of us, our ancestors included.
Third world poverty is a result of selfish colonial policies, proverty in our cities by lack of concern, poverty in some places are due to our wetern cultures do not help enough, or care enough.
We are all guilty in contributing to poverty, one way or another, and we all should do something about it.
As a Christian I would never dream of saying to a starving child “Don’t worry, God has a plan”, I would give him/her something to eat.
I can’t bear those of us who go to poor countries for flash vacations and complain about lack of ameneties and about the fact they were overcharged by a dollar. If we must go to such places on holiday, each one of us should try to make whatever contribution they can to help somebody. If every fairly affluent person in the world looked after just one or two poor people, we would have no poverty.
I am not saying I am perfect; I am well aware I can do more, but I don’t like people putting blame where it does not belong. Poverty is our fault, nobody else’s.
End of story
Hey fri,
Yep this Luis fellow is a real card, he has all the answers, I ask him how come your savior allows children to starve? His brilliant answer is don’t worry this life is only temporary, I wish he could get over there and see the conditions those people live in, and convince the starving boy and girl not to worry cause Jesus has a plan.
Seems James is keeping a low profile, haven’t heard from him either.
Cheers,
markus
fri, the answer is there above…. I mean further up where markus and I are talking (you might in your understanding believed that I was talking about the clouds so just to make myself clear
) And below where you talk about the morality case, there are answers as well. Yup, it’s late, gotta go nighty night, so take care of yourself dude.
Grace be with you,
Luis.
Markus, that post was very touching and close to my heart as my wife and I do lot of work with various charities. It is incredible how we live in somehow civilized world, discovered the cure for many diseases and unfortunately children still go to school without breakfast and lunch on a daily basis, these poor kids have one meal per day.
We are trying to work a program with the government and private companies to see if we can remedy the situation. Where is this love of God I ask, certainly he is not doing as much as we are to resolve the problem. Why can’t the Jesus of Luis do something about it? Apparently the moron (Luis) does seem to believe he has the powers. How many more millions of humans will suffer for the mistake of one man, Adam? Can one still say he is a god of love?
You think Luis could email his god and ask him for a solution? I would do that myself but unfortunately I don’t have his email.
Just wait and see how the moron will post some more scriptures, yet where are the answers?
It is really dumb how people can believe in something for thousands of years without a shred of evidence and claiming to be created in the image of God.
markus have you heard anything from James? I have not heard from him in a while.
11:45Pm time to go sleep
greetings markus, I’ll just copy your inquiries (hoping that you don’t mind), it makes it easier than going back and forth to answer, I’ll put my answers this way (Luis: what I’m answering :Luis):
start end
markus wrote–>”Putting that aside, can I ask you only 2 questions?
1. Seeing as medical science has improved over the years and some people can get can cured of cancer, depending on circumstances, how come Jesus gets the credit for this when 200 years ago a similar person in the same condition had to receive an early retirement from life, what has changed? Let me not bore you with the scripture that clearly says He never changes. (Luis: ok, to begin with, when has cancer started to occur on people? Ever since the fall of man (Adam and Eve) when they sinned and death, sickness, suffering entered the world, so this is a cursed world that we live in. Something that is quite misunderstood very often is that people believe that as soon as they accept Jesus, they get cured, have money, all problems solved, etc….first of all, where did He ever say that? where in the Bible do you find that? To begin with, you can clearly see that to be Saved is be taken out from eternal punishment (hell), once you accept Christ and acknowledge that God’s Word is real, then you have hope and you put your trust on Someone that is True, who has never changed His Word, but you still continue to live in this cursed world, but you’re not of this world anymore, you are a child of God (1John 3:1). So in conclusion, everything that we have here on earth is just temporary, the real thing that comes is after we die, He doesn’t promise riches, nor good health, nor fame while you’re on earth, what He promises is eternal life with Him in Heaven, so why worry about something that is temporary (here on earth) when I know (by God’s Word) that there’s something eternal that comes afterwards. :Luis)
2. Seeing as Jesus can practically do anything, and I have seen some I’ve witnessed with my own eyes, once I saw a fellow which I have never seen before being wheeled into a charasmatic Church (Luis: they just go by experiences, it’s unfortunate you had to go to one :Luis)and after many a ‘praise the Lord’ and ‘halelujahs’, I witnessed him walking out never to be seen again (Luis: how do you know that this dude was not just some guy that they paid on the street to act it out? or maybe he’s somewhere else doing the same show :Luis). On this occasion I got quite alarmed when a very large woman grabbed hold of this disabled person’s head forced it against her large breast looked up and shouted something I could never repeat but I’m sure LAWD was in there somewhere, this woman looked crazed, spittle flowing from her mouth like a sprinkler (Luis: yeah, it’s unfortunate, they (the charismatics) put on these shows (benny hinn just to give you an example) but the problem that is all a disorder, experience here, and there, and one thing that they didn’t have the decency of checking in the Bible is that everything that is recorded on the book of Acts (that’s what they usually point out to support their doctrine) is that all those experiences mentioned had a purpose, and once the purpose was completed (for jews, gentiles, people in general, to believe) then it eventually disappeared. You can see that for example the gifts of speaking in tongues, healing, etc are not mentioned in the Epistles later on. You can clearly see that even though Paul had the gift of healing, he couldn’t heal himself, nor timothy, he just adviced him to drink some wine for his stomach problems (that doesn’t mean that you’re entitled to start drinking wine whenever you want, it would be like drinking cough syrup when you don’t have a cough, it’s common sense. :Luis) . I looked around and most in the audience had their arms raised up or were just just looking nodding their heads as if watching something they knew what was going to happen.
On to the question, how come Jesus has so far not been able to miraculously get a severed arm or leg to grow back? May I advance an answer? Because man has not figured that one out yet, but if he does no doubt Jesus will get the credit. (Luis: well dude, here we go again, when the pharisees and the scribes were asking for miracles and wonders, yet what did Jesus respond? “An evil and adulterous generation cravers for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it….” (Matthew 12:39) well you can read the whole thing if you want verses 38-45 so I don’t get blamed for using only certain words like many people do to try to prove a point and see for yourself why He is saying that. The signs, miracles and wonders had a purpose, to give Jesus the credibility of what He was saying was true, and for people to believe, yet you can notice that the signs He performed were not the most important thing, it was the Salvation message what was more important (John 3:16-18). Christ is portrayed right from the start, when God gave His promise of a Saviour (Genesis 3:15) and in many other parts of the Bible. It’s the message that you can be saved through Jesus the real important message here. God started salvation, and it’s just a gift, by God’s Grace and not of man’s works so no one may boast (Ephesians 2:8-9) :Luis) (oh, and just an add-on, check this out “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect”(Jesus’s Words in Matthew 24:24) and guess what you see in the charismatic churches? the same thing that Jesus already said it way in advance :Luis)
Spare me the scriptures: God works in his own ways …blah….blah…. , Don’t question God’s works …more….blah… To mention a couple.” (Luis: yeah, I know, it’s pretty sad how unprepared people that say that they believe in God yet don’t know much about Him because they didn’t read His Word, take the easy way out to answer in those ways you mention :Luis)
Well my friend, I hope that the answers provided clear out what you were asking me, again, everything comes from the Word of God, and I want to take a chance to share this with you:
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (but you can read the whole chapter if you want)
10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Check that is the judgement of God that is the consequence of one’s own action, not that He does this in advance, the more you reject the Truth, then the consequence that is for you to suffer. Take care of yourself dude, and have a good evening.
Grace be with you,
Luis.
Luis,
Waal ain’t you just a lucky son of a gun. Jesus saw fit to let the veil be lifted and so you are saved. Whoopie I say, thank God for your good fortune. Spare a thought for the starving kids in Sudan and Ethiopia
who don’t go to school, don’t drive around in cars, do not have the everyday problem of whether they will get that raise or not, or perhaps how to loose those extra 10 kilos that somehow, incredibly the God of fat bestowed upon them.
Fact is these kids spend most of their time crawling around in the dirt, not for the latest specimen for their biology class, but to eat. Because good Jesus forgot about them but prefers a fat American or the equally adept European to go to heaven because the veil was unlifted.
Why don’t you join a really good organization, like ‘food for Africa’ or ‘benefits for DRC victims’?
These orgs can be found on the internet, look them up and donate some small change, trust me it’s a helluva
lot better than giving 10% of your earnings to some liar
on stage promising you eternal life.
Cheers,
Markus
Oh, and by the way, the last question you asked about the 20000 or more churches/denominations/cults and whatnut, I’ve already answered that before, go look for it. Take care.
Grace be with you,
Luis.
I already mentioned it before fri, what best suits you. If you really think that verbal abusing someone is morality, then ask everyone if they agree with you. Now, why would I post another verse if you don’t believe in it anyway? But since you asked, I will.
1 Corinthians 15:32-33:
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.”
Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
You do charity? Don’t cheat on your wife? Congratulations my friend, you do well. But verbal abuse and disrespecting people (not just me) using foul language, that’s another story. Take care dude.
Grace be with you,
Luis.
Thanks for the well meant comment markus, don’t worry, I’m not scared on checking those sites due to the fact that I’ve seen them as well, yet the points of views that are there are similar to those we’ve been discussing for quite some time now. Imagine, if I were to fear of “touching” those websites as you kindly mentioned, then I would be acting like the jehova’s witnesses calling everyone that differs from their points of view “apostates”, everyone is entitled to give their own opinion, that has been cleared out already, yet as I said, it’s God who has an UNCHANGED saying throughout the whole Bible (His Word [2Tim 3:16-18]), and you choose to believe or not. Very well my friend, take care of yourself, and even if you don’t want to, I’ll keep praying for you, but as I said before, you’ve chosen a path already, and even if someone you know returned from the dead and told you, you still won’t believe, we’ve discussed about this before. I truly hope that one day you change, but it’s your choice.
Grace be with you,
Luis.
Luis,
Thanks for the website, it makes for very interesting
reading.
I have seen it before and I have seen far better pro Christian websites.
I can forward them to you if you like.
There are other equally interesting Atheist websites
that bear excellent reading for those who wish to get both sides of the story.
As I fear you would never touch these Websites
for fear of your mind being opened I won’t waste time looking for them in my scrapbook, but if you are interested let me know.
Cheers,
Markus
Luis, you are so wrong. How can you make a statement like: “well how can you teach morality to someone if he/she doesn’t believe in the One who actually teaches us about it?”
Does one, according to your small brain have to be a Christian (go to church once a week) to have morals, just by simple going to your church will make you an automatic moral person? I guess If one does not read the good book and does not show up in church will automatically be an immoral person right? What a moron you are!
You couldn’t be much further from the truth! At the age of 41 I have never be arrested or in trouble with law for that matter. In 23 years of driving on a daily basis I had 1 parking ticket. I have been married only once and still with the same wife for 13 years. Now, can the same thing be said about you?
If you look my previous posts you will find out that my wife and I are very much involved with various charities.
But apparently to Manfred you claim you cannot teach morality if I don’t believe it. Do you have an idea what the word morality is you moron? Before you stick a foot in your mouth again please do consult a dictionary before you post such outrageous propaganda. It certainly would make you look less dumb.
Will you ever respond to my questions or will you just quote another scripture from your good book?
“I am your god” “you will praise me alone” “you will revere me alone” or you will die, that if your free choice. Do you really call that choice? What have you got for a brain?
I will make the question again, how can you some have 20,000 different churches/groups/denomination/cults all deriving from the SAME good book, all praising the same God, all believing to be the true ones? You want to take a shot at it Einstein?
Ps. dont forget to post another scripture!
I was ready to leave, but I saw this message, so I’ll respond quick. I’m gonna use your comment and respond there (in parenthesis) if you don’t mind.
Comment by annonymous (Comment ID: 136918)
luis what is your personal witness for christ. How did you hear the good-news’(a friend shared the gospel with me many years ago) and what was the word that really convicted you? (do you mean “convinced”? if you made a typo, that’s ok, well, in the beginning I had lots of questions just like anyone else when he/she is new to the matter, but there is one thing that it’s totally true, God draws the person to know Him, it’s interesting, but I remember that before I accepted Christ to be my Saviour, I was looking for answers, I thought I had them, but I realized I didn’t, that’s why I thank God that He took the veil out of my eyes and let me see His Truth, it’s all in the Bible, God’s Word. I chose to believe in Christ, because He IS the Truth (John 14:6). Ok, ok, I gotta run now, but I hope I was helpful, whoever you are.
Blessings,
Luis.
greetings manfred, well how can you teach morality to someone if he/she doesn’t believe in the One who actually teaches us about it? I said it before, and in case you missed it, I’ll say it again, everyone chooses his/her own path, who he/she wants to believe, how, and why. What is the big difference here is that Jesus said “I AM THE TRUTH….” (John 14:6), He didn’t say, as many people, churches, organizations, groups say that they have the truth, Jesus IS the Truth, so if you read the Bible, where do you find anything that praises man? The whole Bible praises God, and Him alone, He has revealed the ways He wants us to praise Him and worship Him, noone else, not even ourselves. He is our creator, therefore He has all the given right to tell us what to do, yet He gives us, in all His love, free will to choose. You can see all over the place the confusion that exists because humans have tried to interpret everything using human reasoning, or using what was to his/her advantage (slavery, racial discrimination, doctrinal errors) but it’s pretty clear that if you want to understand what is SPIRITUAL, then you must be born again SPIRITUALLY (John 3:1-21). That’s why many know the Bible back and forth, hey you can even give them a sentence and they’ll take you right to the exact book, chapter and verse, yet they don’t understand it, nor believe it, because they’re simply natural men (1Corinthians 2: 6-16) Well, I gotta run now, but will be back later, so ta-ta for now.
Grace be with you,
Luis.
what best suits you fri, I already mentioned it before, you have your faith indeed, in yourself, you’ve already chosen your own path, so go on, keep on walking, as I said it to markus a loooong time ago, you won’t understand it even if I drew it with cartoons and all, this has to be SPIRITUALLY discerned. Take care, and have a nice golf day.
Luis.
John 3:16-18
16″For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”