Canadian internet petition calling to make it illegal to refuse a blood transfusion
Jean-Claude Lavoie, a 26 year old Canadian Jehovah’s Witness, died in December 2006 after refusing a blood transfusion while being treated for an intestinal tumour, the Canadian TQS television network reported.
Former Jehovah’s Witness Jonathan Lavoie, Jean-Claude’s brother, has since launched an internet petition (written in French) calling on the federal government to make it illegal for a person to refuse treatment on religious grounds.
“The Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse blood transfusions for religious reasons,” Jonathan Lavoie writes on the petition’s website. “This creates enormous stress for the family.”
Jonathan maintains that his brother would still be alive if he had received a transfusion.
But Jean-Claude’s father told TQS he is willing to accept his son’s decision: “At the beginning it was anticipated that in his case they would be able to operate without a transfusion, but there were complications. It’s unfortunate, but it came to that. It’s important to respect Jean-Claude’s choice.”
thank god for doctors like you.
Hi anonymous,
I always got the ‘pay attention’ book…I mean the hard copy or, better say, xeroxed from cover to cover since I was one of the witless grunts myself, but I’ve always checked out on the net where you can get it from.
I used to find it also thru the ‘Watchtower Quotes site’ now ‘Reexamine’ of the great Peter Mosier.
Copies of the blasphemous book should be sent to the Congress, to the Supreme Court, to all Institutions dealing with ethics (both American,Canadian and European), to the media, and a discourse analysis of the text should be commisioned to the best psychologist.
But I think none of these folk would give a damn about the fate of such scum who, by the way, deserve only to be ground down by the crushing wheels of such monsters.
I’m only very, very sorry for those innocent children who, one way or another, will have their soul evil-ized perhaps for good (or forever).
Do propose yourself other avenues as to make the book available to the public. Let’s remember that other people will be tainted with this black plague…they’re only accidents waiting to happen.
Sorry Otto,
the “indexed” section of the Vatican library is only available with a special pass, and that book is on the index. (An indexed book is one considered to be dangerous.)
To get a pass like that is tricky, either you must be a Catholic academic, or be ordained and have permission from your bishop or abbot.
But I see you got a copy now. You zoomed in on some of the legalistic stuff, which is in places quite scary.
Even worse is the chapter called “Jehovah’s people theocratically organised for his name”…
There the essential principal is laid out, bit by bit, replacing God essentially with the Watchtower organisation. There is no direct access to God, only through the organisation. This makes JW into a cult, in my view, quite undebatably.
It would be good to make this wretched book available to all, so that people can see for themselves, any ideas how to do that?
ok, I’ve just found a scandinavian site you can downlad the ‘pay attention’ book, just digit the book’s name then get into one of the uplinks.
Follow some ‘pay attention’ book text (page 134) showing how the elders have to get busy with what is going on between the genital organs of married people, enjoy:
“While elders should be informed one way or the other, it
is up to the innocent mate to decide whether to divorce or
not.
The innocent mate should be informed that resuming
sexual relations with the adulterous mate would indicate
forgiveness and would therefore cancel the Scriptural
ground for divorce. (w81 3/1 pp. 30-1)
Forgiveness of adultery involves a willingness on the part
of the innocent mate to resume sexual relations with the
adulterous mate within a reasonable period of time. (w74
11/1 pp. 671-2)
By withholding the marriage due, the nonadulterous mate
would be indicating that no forgiveness has been
extended.”
The elders would consider evidence from the adulterous
mate to determine that there is a definite rejection by the
nonadulterous mate.
A divorced couple (even if only legally divorced) who
have sex relations with each other commit fornication.
(Heb. 13:4; w82 9/lp.31)
To anonymous above,
thank you for your reply, unfortunately at the moment I don’t have an anonymous provider.
I’ve tried the vatican library route but no results as yet.
Yes in some places -those that talk about judicial committees and the like are very nasty especially for their implications.
Please visit the site ‘thus saith the governing body of jehovah’s witlesses’ and especially the ‘Bethel Chronicles’ to see outta what kind of insanely degenerate minds those rules were regurgitated.
Otto,
It seems you have have a copy. Earlier you asked if anyone has one. Well, the book is not quite as secret as it seems. I got a pdf version via uplink from the Vatican library.
If anyone wants it, I am happy to email it to you. If you tell me an email address to send it to on this site, in reply to this message, you got one. For obvious reasons it may be a good idea to use an anonymous (hotmail or yahoo or similar) email provider.
I did find the book both uninspiring and dull, and if places positively nasty, so definitely not for children.
Hi again,
with regard to the ‘pay attention’ book, until a while ago I could find it on the internet…now it’s disappeared without a trace. But as they say (quote the X-File chain-smoker…remember?): ‘nothing diasppears without a trace!’
Anybody got the infamous and blasphemous book?
Did any of you ex-elders xeroxed the book prior to handing it back over back to the reptiles after being removed from office?
One thing I’ll never get is how come NONE of the removed/disfellowshipped elders had the brass/sense of humor to tell those mathafathas of the body of elders they had actually misplaced the book and could not find it…sorry!
When one of my friend elder was going to be removed I was given his copy by his wife (a witless this too but sick to death with the cult).. to me…a disfellowshipped! ah! ah! ah!
Hi all, just seen that there’s the ‘pay attention’ book on eBay.
It cost a lot though…
Hi everyone,
Hello Governing Body of the Jehovah’s Witlesses,
just to let those who don’t know to give a glance to ‘All about the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witlesses’ and ‘Thus saith the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witlesses’. In those sites there’s a lot of interesting and funny information.
Hey jessica,
if fornication is a sin for you, just don’t do it, yeah?
Stop boring us quoting the sludgeful crap written by those genocide mongers who wrote the new testament in between mindless sexual and drunken orgies and mass burials of new-borns, still-borns and miscarriages (the fruit of such endless debauchery)!
Hi Jones,
sorry I got carried away writing my last posting.
Just start looking up the internet research/papers on the ‘Skinner Box’ and about BF Skinner.
Then you can also take your pick by entering ‘rewards and punishment, psychology’.
Research by Pavlov is usually necessary to get the context of such research.
Hope you don’t find such research so dry as to give it up!
Of course this doesn’t mean that I endorse all the conclusions and implications of such research, right?
Also I wanted to tell you not to be mislead by my straightforwardness: I’m not angry because the watchtowerian terrorists & child grabbers have destroyed parts of my life.
I really, really enjoyed the last years in the congro: me and my buddies used to sit together at the limpdom hall and when we were to sing we would sing all sort of blasphemies (for the them of course…). Then we used all ways to disrupt the meetings especially with our uncontrollable laughs, we would write all sort of shameful dialogues to the people in the magazine pictures or write all sort of pornographic/antichristian interpretation between the lines of the watchtower litera-trash especially the sunday articles…then we all got disfellowshipped or disassociated.
Of course this was for fun -you can never imagine what a funny period that was- and to tell them elders that their morbid and sick authority over us was over, not because we wanted to be offensive.
I think I will never laugh that much again in my life for such an extended period!
The period of my disfellowshipping they really persecuted me and my family spreading all sorts of slanders on my account -e.g. satanism, teaching demonology, selling black magic books, carrying out brainwashing psychological experiments on minors, etc..
In fact I first got “marked” on the ground of such preposterous accusations.
They were really bastards because for instance my university psychological research on child development were all done by the book (the ethical rules set by the APA) and part of the syllabus. They forced other members of the congro to support their accusations even using my best friends (or at least I thought so..) as false witness. Traitors!
Point is that those pathetic elders -most of whom were being cuckoled by their wives- hated me cos I told them I got the KS book and that I was carrying out in-depth research on the watchtower society.
But I was so great that I performed better than ever at university, because when you know you’re right that is strengthtening, although I never felt a religious martyr (hateful category).
Then instead of disfellowshipping me for apostasy (I showed them that the Towers of All Terrors is the most depraved of all organization on the planet and the bible is the cheapest toilet paper) they disfellowshipped me for smoking although I do not smoke! They used two witless girls that saw me ONCE at a pub together with friends who were smoking and made them state I was smoking. And unlike they say in the KS, they didn’t show in the “witnesses” of my sin after me having denied I smoked.
Look I got so many things to say but I better stop here I don’t want to bore anybody.
Last but not least after telling me I got disfellowshipped they concluded as follows: ‘Look Otto, you’re lucky, you know that right? If we were during Israel’s times we would have killed you’.
I think you wouldn’t be surprised then if coming my place you’ll always find a torn copy of the bible next to the cup in my bathroom.
God bless your day my friend.
Mr. Otto,
You failed to direct me to the research you referenced in one of your posts. I’m serious about reading it.
The Old Testament was not directed to me. I read it as history. The Gospels were directed to the Jews. I study how Jesus taught the Jews and his Apostles. My focus has always been on the letters to the churches and the direction that was given to the Christian community. When the gospel was preached to the Gentiles that is where my obedience begins. The book of Acts of the Apostles is what I used to learn what those people were doing and God added them to the church. It was not some directed obedience to a set of rules that came 1700 years later. Call me whatever you want, it has worked for me and to me that is what matters. What you do in your life matters to you and you set the course. That is the great beauty of freedom of choice. I believe. You don’t. I can live with that. I accept that without giving you any grief over it. I would gladly sit down and have a cup of coffee or in the south of the USA we would have a nice glass of iced tea. We could compare our ideas of how to solve the problems of the world or we could talk about the weather. You do what works for you and I do what works for me. At the end of the day, I still am not good enough to have any kind of relationship with a Jehovah’s Witness. I have been judged and found guilty. How funny is that?
Hi Markus, hi Jones,
I agree that Jones is a very good and open minded person thanks to which a constructive dilaogue is possible.
However, Ghandi was totally wrong about jesus. Smart of him though using the jesus figure for manipulative purposes…
The gospels are rife with threats on the part of jesus, always harping on the same topic about going to gehenna, hell, not peace but sword, etc.
Moreover Matthew 11:12 reports jesus saying: ‘from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the VIOLENT TAKE IT BY FORCE’.
Luke 19:27 talking about how jesus intended to deal with his enemies (foreign or domestic we would say today?): ‘But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and SLAY THEM BEFORE ME’.
SLAY means SLASHING peoples’ throats just like those terrorists do in the middle east.
This is blood gore and violence.
This pathetic bible ogre god (yhwh+jesus+holy fart) after having created the universe has to resort to the SAME vicious, vile and sanguinary methods as those deployed by debased humans ruled by Satan the Devil, the Prince of Darkness and of all demons… This is what christians (and once myself ..) believe? Come on!
No wonder then the violence and horror throughout the world!
Hi again Jones,
I must admit you have a good attitude. If everyone felt the same our world would be a paradise. The powerful nations could put the billions spent on research on how to kill enemies more effectively to better use by helping very hungry almost helpless folk in other parts of the world. These most powerful nations the USA and Britain are predominantly Christian. It has to be said
to quote Mahatma Gandhi: ‘The problem with Christians is they do not do what Jesus did’.
The stupidity of religion raises its head when there is a launching of a battleship or other adept killing machine, there is always a priest handy to bless it and give it God’s blessing. The hypocracy is nauseating.
I have always said one does not have to attend Church every Sunday to be a good person. I have a clear conscience I earn a fair wage for a fair days work and I can count my lucky stars I was born in a geographical location where life is relatively good.
Who knows what happens to us when we die? Sadly I feel we are like the leaves on a tree that fall when its time is due. As Manfred said: I might be in for a pleasant surprise. Hope he is right.
Cheers,
Markus
Mr. Otto,
I reference your last paragraph first. Do you have a particular person or persons’ research concerning this subject? If so, please share so I may read.
The only people I have had any contact with who have left the JW have been through this forum. After many years studying the JW religion from their own writings I can understand maybe some of the deep anger I think I would have once I could see the control they maintain over their membership.
There is a saying that the anticipation of the event is sometimes more wonderful than the actual event. If this is true, then I have for myself great rewards as I live and anticipate what I believe will come. We all as individuals carve out for ourselves a method of coping with the joys and sorrows of life. Some use a gun or another method to end it. Others will drown in the mire of mental illness. Still others will act out their misery by creating misery and pain for others and to others. There are some who will not engage with others because it does not benefit them. Then there are the Mother Theresa’s of the world who give their lives to service because it is the right thing to do. Then there is the group in the middle who do and give and help to a degree but are committed to engage with raising families and doing public service. I wish I knew what drives us to do and be what we are. I choose to believe that there is a higher force that guides me and it works for me. That is the goal isn’t it? Finding what works and makes you able to survive with some measure of happiness in this life. My life has been full and I have had an opportunity to pursue goals and enjoy what I do. To quote someone rather famous “it is the worlds greatest joy to choose a career that you love and you will never work a day in your life.”
Today I play. You may call it work but my business place is my toy shop. I wish for you the same.
to Jones
I would like to add that I prefer living without deluding myself. As now I have no hope for the future.
It’s tough so I get why senior folk still cling to their delusions. Also because it’s very difficult to reconceptualize one’s own existence after a lifetime of delusional but comforting hopes.
I got out of the Towers of All Terrors just in time to redirect my life. You see,comfort or no I can’t live with myself embedded in a lie and lie that’s not mine at that!
And I’m not an atheist. I just do not believe what people want to tell me about the entity/God/whatever made all this.
The things they, religions, teach me about their gods it’s really sickening.
The teachings of the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger destroyed my childhood and adolescence not to mention my family what with disfellowshippings and the likes.
And what the bible teaches is no respect for nobody and nobody’s life. Bottom line the bible promotes a fascist theocracy whereby time will come that all those who beg to differ must go to hell or erased for ever. But religious people don’t see this. They only see the few sugar pills about love and happiness here and there so that their mouths water at the hoped for rewards. Still they have to die before, right? Then they get their rewards.
Nothing for nothing, right?
You ever read or studied anything about rewards and punishment research and their relative effect on behavior and on the cognitive interpretation of reality?
Jones, I hope you’ll have another great day.
Hello Jones, hello guys,
the comment above (ID:224650) is MINE!
Just forgot to put my name in the ‘name’ field.
Hope you enjoy it.
Hi Jones, the conclusion of the CARM article about Mithra is the following (my comments will be bracketed like this):
Therefore, even though there are similarities between Christianity and Mithraism, it is up to the critics to prove that one borrowed from the other (it was christianity that STOLE not borrowed from heathenism as it preceded the jesus myth by thousands years). But, considering that the writers of the New Testament were Jews (say who they were jews? they were the Roman Catholic hierarchy that defined everything about the jesus myth STEALING from heathenism) who shunned pagan philosophies (eeeerrrrrr! wrong answer: the gospel of John, for instance,is full of pagan Hellenism, its writer and canonizers actually embraced “poisonus” heathen philosopies) and that the Old Testament has all of the themes found in Christianity (the old testament, the most despicable, obscene, terroristic and fundamentalist al quaeda manifesto says everything and the contrary of it, meaning you can fit/extrapolate any kind of prophecy and religious pattern out of it) it is far more probable (see the admitted PROBABILITY..eh…eh) that if (see the conditional…) any borrowing (STEALING) was done, it was done by the pagan religions that wanted to emulate (how can you emulate something that does not exist yet???) the success of Christianity.
Also dear Jones the article by CARM starts with a title that is as loaded a question as countless you see in the litera-trash by the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger…
The Carm article is aimed at dumbwits to re-enforce their cluelessness and is another piece of telling evidence of the opinion they (CARM writers) have about the intellectual skills of their readership.
An outright insult to your intelligence.
The long list of presumed old testament prophecies fulfilled in jesus is another gimmick much used by the Towers of All Terrors: they impress nobody.
Markus above clearly described how the new testament writers used that old testament garbage to fit it into the jesus myth.
I could give you thousands of examples of old testament pseudo-prophecies that either could be applied to other characters other than jesus or that never got fulfilled.
Babylon and some other middle eastern cities that were prophesied to be erased and forgotten are still there, Jesus -apart from the dreamed of angel- was never called Immanuel by anybody, Leviticus 17:11 DOES not say that atonement would have come from a nice guy called Immanuel or much less jesus.
Isaiah 26:19 says ‘dead MEN shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise’ (arise from what, death? it doesn’t say…). You ever seen men arising together with a zombie/dead body???
Yes, none of the old testament pseudo-prophecies clearly states that any particular prophecy would have been fulfilled in the person of some name: Jesus, last name: Christ. They are so fuzzy and so many that could be applied to any person in any time.
Markus,
We have been at this for some time now and I do understand where you are coming from. Just let me explain something here. There is much that I do not understand about this wonderful expanse that we call earth and the creation of all life. I do not want to accept that this is all there is and then it is over. My ability and desire to love and nurture people around me has been fueled by that book called the bible. My ability to let go of hate and desire to harm came from that book. All that is good within me comes from my desire to be better today than yesterday. It comes from that book. I am surrounded by people who have the same mindset. We influence others by our conduct and desire to help when they are in need. At the end of the day when the lights are out, I am comforted by what I believe when I spill out my pain and need and joy to that invisible presence. I look forward to seeing in eternity those who are no longer with me. That beautiful grandson with CP will be whole and I will be able to see him run and play. Is all this a crutch that I am deluding myself with? If it is then so be it. It makes my life easier as I approach my 70th year. I don’t know if you have ever heard a song called “Is That All There Is” by Peggy Lee. It is a very old one and much before your time but I thought when I heard that song, it was the saddest attitude to have when after it is over there is nothing, absolute nothing.
We all get up in the mornings with a plan or an idea of what we will accomplish that day. The reward at the end of the day is the fruit of that labor. That is the way I feel about life. I am looking for that land of milk and honey that is described in Rev. 20 and 21. Today I want to fulfill the greatest commandment to love God and my neighbor, no matter what color his skin is or what religion he professes or if he is an unbeliever. In the end it won’t matter if there is no hereafter, but I will have traveled this path making someone feel like they were important and loved and needed. There is reward in seeing that I have made a difference even if it is a small one.
Jones,
I cannot disprove Biblegod’s existence and neither can you prove it. This I fear is the bottom line.
The world is indeed beautiful and thus a God must have been responsible, for we do not have the capacity to explain our existence.
My conviction is that a loving God cannot create such beauty and misery in the same sweep of hand.
The western world mainly Christian believes they are saved and all other religions lost, on the same globe the Muslims equal in number or probably more believe the infidels (us) are fit only for damnation.
My brain capacity is limited, I can grasp the theory we we created, what I cannot grasp is who created our creator, and who created the creator of the creator.
I cannot accept Biblegod as my loving father for countless reasons which I’m sure you are tired of hearing by now.
Thanks for the link. At the risk of sounding like a broken record here goes again: The New Testament was written many years after the events in it happened
and so are hearsay, the prophesies which every Christian goes on about the Bible proving itself are null and void.
New Testament authors’ logic was probably something like this: Lets see now the Messiah is to be born of a virgin mother, we must write the events accordingly
and thus gain more creditability.
Remember in those days folk did not have their own copy of the scriptures, they went only on what the priest of the day preached, it was only many centuries
later when folk like you and me get to read the scriptures and can make our own evaluations.
Cheers,
Markus
Here is a question for all of you to consider… Do you LOVE your children? Family? and anyone that may need you to speak for them about a transfusion? Ok, Now Do you know EVERYTIME you are faced with that question who you would be getting the blood from? Usually NO! You expect that the person donating is telling the truth about their lifestyle. Ok In the 1980’s there was a HUGE issue with blood transfusions… They were taking blood form inmates (People in Jail/Prison) Now these people didnt have clean blood, but our “Wonderful caring loving non-witness Christians” DIDNT GIVE A SHIT! (I’M REFFERING TO THE PEOPLE THAT TOOK AND ALLOWED THE BLOOD TO “PASS” THE SCREANING PROCESS) They took blood that was saturated and heavily infested with… are you ready for this?? AIDS!!! Now think of the poor mother with her dying baby of …Lets say 6months old… The baby needs blood to live. Maybe its a gamble if the body will accept the blood transfusion and not reject it. (this has happened many a time many a situation) ok mother says YES!!! Give the child the blood, (She is making a decision for the baby, the baby may not have wanted the blood, but the mother didnt care about the child’s wants or deccisions, granted its a baby but you teust that the parent would do what is right for the child right? ) Ok the blood that was given in this time peroid caused this parent to GIVE her little 6mo old baby AIDS. The mother chose to make her baby suffer for years to come and also caused her childs very painful death. Hummm i’d have rathered to have said NO to the transfusion. now mind you almost every person that had the transfusions ended up with an Advanced string of AIDS. Now look at God’s point of view… “acts 15:20: But to write them to abstain from things polutedby Idolsand from fornication AND FROM BLOOD. 29: To keep abstaining from things sacrificed to Idols AND FROM BLOOD and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, You will prosper. Good health to you!”
hummm sounds like the person/being/spirit that you should be worried about displeasing is not the media other religions the courts etc… but should be about the ONE AND ONLY GOD, JEHOVAH! I rather have good faith and light in his eyes and not be blotted out of the Good Book and do what my Father says!! He is the only one that matters!
jessica.struthers@gmail.com
Let me know what you think and back it up! dates times books page etc…
Mr. Otto;
Before you crawl my case, I intended to type “entitled” but being human, I hit the wrong key.
Read in any bible:
Fornication(S):
**1co:6:13,18
**1co:10:8
eph: 5:3
1th 4:3
1co:5:1
Fornicator(S)
1co 5:9
Eph: 5:5
If you would like to know what it says e-mail me
Jessica.Struthers@gmail.com
Otto my friend!
You are so untitled to believe just whatever you want. I am also untitled to believe whatever I want. My posting may be lame but when you can PROVE there is no God then PLEASE put your cards on the table. You see, we have a creation and if you can prove where it all started then I will concede and that will be the end of the debate. I don’t intend to swap insults. At the end of the day I find comfort in my illusions. What do you get with yours?
Hi Jones,
I hoped some of your stock would reply with something more challenging and worthy of an answer.
But don’t worry, now I gotta go, but I’ll give you an answer for your lame posting anyway ASAP.
regards
Mithra…….
http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm
Here is some evidence of the Bible having a not so unique account of affairs stated within it. Andy you and others may wish to take notes:
Various other Gods written about are: Osiris, Horus and Isis:
About 3000 B.C.E (My note NB): Egyptians began worshipping the god Osiris, who was associated with the sun. He was portrayed as a trinity: a heavenly god, an earthly god, and a falcon.
The king of Egypt claimed to be the earthly god. He acted as a link between humanity and the heavenly god. It was believed the earthly god king became the heavenly god after death.
Later, the heavenly god, Osiris, was said to have fathered (through Isis, a virgin) an earthly god son, Horus, who was actually a rebirth of Osiris.
According to legend, this birth of Osiris/Horus was announced by Three Wise Men, symbolized by three stars in Orion’s Belt pointing to Osiris’ star in the east. Angelic voices hailed his arrival. His birth was often depicted in a manger, with Isis as the Madonna standing over him, and was said to have occurred on the Winter Solstice. (My note: this account was written absolute ages before the New testament writers were even born).
Belief in Osiris, Horus, and Isis became popular in the Roman Empire, until believers began to be persecuted under Christianity.
MITHRA
About 2000 B.C.E., Persians began worshipping the man-god Mithra, who was supposedly born from a god father and a human virgin mother. ( My note: ditto).
Mithra’s birth was said to have occurred in a cave or stable, and was witnessed by shepherds who brought him gifts. Later, his followers celebrated this event with a ceremony at midnight on the eve of the Winter Solstice.
Mithra was viewed as a Redeemer. He was believed to have performed miracles, such as raising the dead, healing the sick, making the blind see and the lame walk, and casting out devils.
According to legend, Mithra celebrated a Last Supper with his twelve disciples before he ascended to heaven. In memory of this, his worshippers partook of a sacramental meal of bread marked with a cross.
In subsequent years, a stone image symbolizing Mithra was buried in a tomb. It was then withdrawn and he was said to live again. Followers of Mithra believed a person had to be baptized in order to ascend into the heavens after death. Mithra is supposed to return at the end of time to judge the human race.
In 67 B.C.E., Mithraism was introduced into the Roman Republic. Later, Mithraism stood as a powerful rival to the newly emerging Christianity. In fact, by 307 C.E., Mithra was officially designated the “Protector of the Roman Empire.” However, by 358 C.E., followers of Mithra began to be persecuted under Christianity.
In addition to being a man-god savior, Mithra was connected to the sun god. Later, Christians began referring to their own man-god savior, Jesus, as the “Light of the World” and the “Sun of Righteousness.” Christians moved their Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday (sun-day).
I personally find the above very interesting, as to me the worship of Jesus/Biblegod now is as real to me as the Aztecs were when they sacrificed virgins to the Sungod, who was as real to them as Jesus is to you.
Cheers,
Markus.
Hi Markus,
with regard to the absurdity of the scripture in terms of its accuracy and above all in terms of the god/s the book describes not to mention its doctrines and relative interpretations by all christian sects I believe that any normal human being should grow out of it, reject the whole lot of it and move on with their lives.
Sadly this is not always the case.
Those who remain believers in the bible and its grotesque gods can be split in two categories:
The first are those who have a profit in terms of cash, power, social approbation, etc. so for these individuals religion is ok and they encourage all to convert to their faith. These are the puppeters.
The second are those who to some extent believe (imagine a continuum that goes from nearly zero ad infinitum) either because they are brainwashed or because they have to cling to some sort of hope to give meaning to an otherwise meaningless existence. Too much of a pull of the rug under their feet accepting that the grotesque idols and related paraphernalia they believe in are just what they are: a sick joke. These are therefore, the useful idiots category.
That’s why their reasoning is so hopelessly biased, they have to distort reality to such an extent as to be bearable, to give a meaning to their own degradation for having been fooled and ripped-off by the first category of “believers” (the puppeters) I described above. Worse still they want us to become the distorsions they themselves are!
I tell you what: biblegod and related stoogies are so depraved, evil and nauseating that I wouldn’t believe or accept such blasphemy not even if the bible really were the word of God. I’d prefer to be destroyed by such monster rather than living in their shithole universe, much less worshipping them.
Hope you’ll all have a nice day
Hey Otto,
Seems you and I have a lot in common, certainly in regard to the absurdity of the scriptures.
Andy rekons the Bible is pure, and has no mistakes, is accurate in every regard. This is a typical knee jerk reaction of the fundamentalist Christian, I could spend days pointing out Bible geographical inaccuracies, countless contradictions and points to ponder on especially regarding various writings (not one but a handful) similar to the Bible in regard to the flood and dated to before the earliest scriptures, the messiah being born of a virgin mother etc etc. It is a sad state of affairs when I get the same response of: I haven’t done a thorough research, I am taking things out of context, the Bible is not an Atlas but a book indicating as to how we should lead our lives, this list is long.
I get fed up when I read the evidence of people being killed needlessly, ie. Mrs Joe sixpack drowning her kids in a bathtub so they could go straight to heaven which was told to her directly from Jesus and so naturally what else could she do but comply?
In as far as my logic goes man never created malaria,
how can we be held responsible for this? Seeing as Biblegod created every living thing on this planet, I just do not see the logic of Him being not being accountable, do you? Most victims of malaria are young children, so how come Biblegod did not save everyone a bit of time and a lot of heartache and instead of having these kids born, how come he did not just send them straight to heaven?
PS Andy, Otto is correct, there is no anger in me just
the obligation I feel to humanity to stop the madness.
Cheers,
Markus
Excellent comment Otto, I could not agree more.
Excellent comment Otto, I could not agree more.
dear Mr De Mers,
funny how you assume that Markus is angry (’I understand the anger’)…personally I see no anger in Markus’ words…but this is a typical manouvre by religionists to inject a bias in people’s words thus regarding themselves as more objective…
You also say: ‘we live in a fallen world because of our own rebellion’: OUR own rebellion? When did I rebel?
What a GROSS generalization! So much so that you can’t help blurting out: ‘as far as malaria, tobacco, AIDS; etc., it is all part of the rebellion; all elements of a fallen world’.
Then you add: ‘we perverted that perfection and hence forth blame God when it is infact our own fault’:
WE perverted that perfection? Hey Mr De Mers you kinda over-estimating the power of the NON-defenders of the faith, ain’t ya?
I wish also to remind you that I and some other folk where born in this world too late to have any such perverting role…
You also say, quoting the toilet paper…oh sorry the Bible, that ‘the wage of sin is death’, yes but then when Lazarus died and thus paid for his sins why did he have to die again?
Then you keep going saying: ‘There are only a few cases where literal accidents have happened. We bring it down upon ourselves’.
WE bring it down upon ourselves? What about the billions of innocent people, children, babies and unborn creature that have and continue to be victims of nameless horrors in a life they never asked to have? These are a ‘few cases’?
Then you also say the bible is not plagiarized…this rounds off the argument…I think you got a great career as a defender of the faith.
Like all religionists you try to blame the people. Only blaming it’s possible to make others feel guilty. Guilty means sinners which in turn means that we need the office and services of those people your god has arranged in order to help us poor sinners and rebels to be forgiven and taught how to live our lives and especially how to spend a hefty sums of our savings. Sound like history’s repeating itself, isn’t it?
Well sir,
I understand the anger because of your maid’s demise; I too lost a sister to a very brutal murder in 92; a sister I loved very much. My father-in-law was an only survivor of the Holocaust; he lost his entire family under the Nazi regime.
We live in a fallen world, it is easy to dismiss the idea that we are the one’s at fault especially when we don’t understand the seemingly unrighteous and unfair things that happen to people, but the fact is, we live in a fallen world because of our own rebellion.
I do study the Bible and research other sources that vehemently oppose Scripture. I am what is known as an apologist (a defender of the faith). In this case, the Christian faith, thus, I must explore as much as possible outside the Bible so I know what I am up against. I didn’t get this information from Sunday school, or sitting in some local church listening to a priest babble every Sunday.
Sir, as far as malaria, tobacco, AIDS; etc., it is all part of the rebellion; all elements of a fallen world. God created perfection, we perverted that perfection and hence forth blame God when it is infact our own fault. God gave us a world and everything in it and consequently, we are the one’s who blew it. The Bible says “The wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23), which in context means that sin has brought about demise in every way, shape and form because of our own rebellion; including malaria, AIDS, and every other infectious disease and mutation. Tobacco was never meant to be physically consumed; people die of lung cancer because they are willfully polluting their lungs! People die from sclerosis of the liver because they pollute the liver by drinking alcohol in excess; they die of drug overdoses because they choose to, they get AIDS because of sexual promiscuity (unsafe sex outside of marriage), tainted needles from drug addictions. There are only a few cases where literal accidents have happened. We bring it down upon ourselves, then we have the audacity to blame God? This is not brain surgery or rocket science, this is the simplest logic. We all consciously make our own choices.
The Bible is not plagiarised by any stretch of the imagination and any honest research into it will render this true. The Bible is completely and ultimately unique in every way. It is other writings and texts that have taken from the Bible, not the reverse.
I’m sorry for your loss and for your hurt, but God is not to blame, we are.
Most respectfully
YOU SAID DEICIDE THE BAND HAHAHAHA KILL THE CHRISTIANS LIIIIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
hi Mark B.
whatever you phrase or rephrase it, the new testament toilet paper originated with the primitive church that then became Santa Romana Chiesa or Chiesa Cattolica Apostolica Romana. No way getting around this!!!
Are you so naive as to think they -the church fathers- wouldn’t edit all the debasing ancient myths (a small nyumber of which I listed above for Mr De Mers) for their own glory, fortune and power?
Even if Peter wouldn’t identify himself as a pope this does not matter because none of the new testament cartoon characters would identify themselves with any religion or title known today except -maybe- for bishop and deacon.
When I say that cardinals, popes and monks wrote the new testament that is a figure of speech to say that it was the Catholic church that invented, copied, edited, plagiarized cultish crap in order to build their endurable myth. And it worked, didn’t it?
So, to all christians that are not catholic I say you are PATHETIC because you you are like right-wing people that reject nazism but nonetheless use Hitler’s Mein Kampf. Come on!
You know that no matter the amount of historicity of the new testament (zero…)and the fathers of the church accounts, the catholic church is the only one, THE ONLY ONE that actually derived from that sick group of madmen known as christians. All other religions split from that core, thus making themselves apostate in that they abandoned their original religious faith.
No rationalizng away. Plus denial is under-rated.
dear Mr De Mers,
I do believe that we are not alone in the universe. I just do not believe in men and their theories about God.
light of the world
As for the bible the old testament is a never-ending series of sadist, wanton butcheries, mass rapes, ethinc cleansing, filthful animal sacrifices, sexual racism, racism, brutal slavery, sexual depravation etc, etc.the god of the old testament (jesus’ father presumably) is the sickiest character of human history.
The new testament is -presumably- about the son of this disgusting thing yhwh.
Jesus in short, advocated hell fire/eternal death for all those who beg to differ.
Like his father came here to bring the sword, not to mention his deranged views about marriage and divorce where there is no social&moral protection for women that decided to divorce their husbands.
Animal and human sacrifice for atonement purposes originated in heathen cults. And this is the basis of your salvation.
Nothing is true about the clownish scarecrow known as jesus. There you go with a list of HEATHEN ORIGIN FACTS ABOUT THE jESUS MYTH belonging the myths about Baal, Budda, Zoroaster, Dyonisus, Krishna, Osiris, Horo and central America yarns thousands of years prior to the advent of the abominion known as jesus the christo:
1) born of a virgin
2) pregnant by virtue of the holy spirit
3) birth heralded by angels
4) worshipped by shepherds
5) son of god
6) onlybegotten
7) savior
9) the way
10) the truth
11) the messiah
12) the king of kings
13) the logos
14) 12 apostles
15) sermon of the mount
16) transfiguration
17) miracles
18) walking on waters
19) death for the atonement of the world
20) resurrection after 3 days
21) ascension
22) ‘apparitions’ after being resurrected
23) the last supper
24) the climb to the the calvary
25) deicide
and you know what? there are many many more!
therefore I can’t help here quoting Markus above:
‘In my very humble opinion you can take your loving God together with your plagiarised Bible and shove it up your ignorant ass’.
Bye-o
Dear Andy,
I agree with you. This earth could either have come about with intelligent design, or was a fluke of immense proportions. Due to our upbringing of believing the Bible, the fluke part of it gets tossed into the garbage.
If you took the time to study your Bible both reading what it contains together with other early writings of the same time you will see the Bible is not unique in its
narrative of the creation of man, neither is it unique in its commentary of the great deluge.
The Bible has plagiarised some of its content. A common practise in the early days.
One looks at a beautiful sunset in its beauty and one has to agree this could only be brought about by a God that only can only be good.
Funny though how this same good God, with all his artistic beauty created malaria, which kills more humans daily than our regular tobacco puffers by more than a hundred fold every single day.
My faithful maid of six years recently died of AIDS. I know the pain of suffering, the Jews in the holocaust did and some still do, this is a doing of a loving God?
In my very humble opinion you can take your loving God together with your plagiarised Bible and shove it up your ignorant ass.
Cheers,
Markus
Curious…
“And if you’re not catholic, remember that you are endorsing the ideology of those popes, cardinals and monks who wrote the bible.”
If you are trying to say that the bible as a text is part of a wider tradition, because the new testament was a product of the early church, and the decision which books belong to the bible was taken within the church, I have no problem with that at all.
However, popes, cardinals or monks most definitely did not write the bible.
a) The first Christian monks date from around 300AD, so well after all the parts of the New Testament were written.
b) Church offices like Pope or Cardinal were first around as such even later than that. True, the Catholic Church calls Peter the first pope, but this is a medieval interpretation after the office of pope was established. If any contemporary of Peter had asked him if he was a pope, he would not have know what he was talking about. Cardinals were established even later by existing popes to ensure that succession was without scandal and controversy. It worked, well mostly, with some quite outrageous exceptions.
c) Popes and bishops certainly had something to do with deciding which writing go into the bible which do not, but they did that long after all the components of the bible were written. There is one other point, though: even the church offices now refferred to as the Sacrament of Orders, being bishop, priest and deacon, took centuries to develop, and the organisation of the early church only has a pssing resemblance to the modern Catholic or Orthodox Church as organisations.
So, for me it is quite funny how a fundamentalist points to the bible as the word of God, thereby implicitly recognising those bishops and popes who compiled the bible as an authority they accept.
Addendum to my comment Mr. Marconi,
The Bible is paramount; by far, the most moral, integral, beautifully written and most profound piece of literature in the world and is still the best selling book of all time. It is historical, experiential, evidential and reliable.
Just an FYI; Jehovah’s Witnesses are “not” Christians. Jehovah’s Witnesses are a world religion. Christianity is not based on religion as most world religions; but on a personal relationship with the Living God. Most world religions are “do” or “works” religions; the Bible is a “done” thing. It is based on the Person and Works of Jesus of Nazareth (Jesus the Christ) and what He has done for us, not the reverse.
Sir,
I am Christian indeed, not Catholic, and I do respect your opinions, however, your facts seem to be a bit muddled to say the very least.
First, it is your right to not believe in God even though evidence for intelligent design is rediculously overwhelming. I do not endorse the ideology of popes, cardinals, nor monks; and they did “not” write the Bible; at least not the Holy Bible; the Holy Bible was given to us by the Jews; you need to get your history on track; they were Jewish Scribes, not Roman Catholics; no offense. The Bible has nothing remotely to do with Roman Catholicism; you have been handed a bill of goods.
The Bible is not cheap, decadent, nor obscene. Quite frankly, the manuscript evidence of the Bible is second to none in accuracy. The Bible is the most accurate manuscript evidence in existence to date; in fact, it is so accurate in comparison to other manuscripts, that if we tossed out the Bible as being inaccurate, then we would also have to toss out all classic literature and antiquity. It seems you have not done your homework.
You may very well dislike the Bible intensely; you may even abhor it, however, to call the Bible cheap, decandent and obscene is to openly admit your ignorance on the subject matter. This is not an ad hominem attack, I mean no personal offense to you, however, I must deal with what you have posted openly and honestly. Bottom line here sir, and as respectfully as possible under the circumstances, you simply do not know what you are talking about.
Dear Mr De Mers,
I gather then that you are a christian. I respect your position and your skills in debunking the witlesses murderous blood doctrine.
Sex and related principles however, are the litmus test for any ideology claiming to represent God (I believe there is none).
I just wanted to see -more or less- where you stand on the issue.
B. Russell actually had a real foundation for his claim: thousands and thousands of years of jading sexual repression and demonization of sex which have only triggered a never-ending escalation of sex perverts as nicely illustrated by the sex crimes of the clergy and the joaievaioh witlesses protected by their Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger.
And if you’re not catholic, remember that you are endorsing the ideology of those popes, cardinals and monks who wrote the bible. Yes the bible, especially the new testament, is and will forever remain the Roman Catholic Church catechism handbook, nothing less, nothing more. Just cheap, decadent and obscene literature. If it hadn’t been so deadly it would’ve been nothing but a laughable collection of deranged un-thoughts.
Dear Mr. Marconi,
What has Bertrand Russell to do with any of this? Or, is this a person you simply admired and thought his thoughts profound? Bertrand Russell was a well known agnostic with no real foundation to his claims. I’m sorry, but I don’t see the point here.
Respectfully
Dear Mr. Hall,
Nobody is saying there is anything wrong with refusing a blood transfusion providing it is a personal choice; but to say that God forbids it is quite another thing; for there is nothing remotely in the Bible that remotely suggests such a thing.
If you need a blood transfusion; there is no Godly mandate that prohibits such a choice; and if one refuses a blood transfusion, then it is their choice; but it should not be held in light of the Bible is all I am saying.
Respectfully
I do appreciate your humility, and your lack of abusive speech. A scripture that you might find interesting is 2 Peter 3: 16 and 17.
Sir, Thank you for your kind words and your attempt to correct me, however, all 2 Peter 3:16 & 17 are implying is to beware of false teaching and/or not understanding the context of Scripture, which in this case does not apply. If you truly read what I have written above it is extracted in context from Scripture and in no way do those passages imply that having a blood transfusion to save a life is prohibited by the Word of God; it is not. The revulsion to a blood transfusion is coming from your own mind, preference and/or Watchtower teaching.
You say that our bodies were made for “our” blood, yet it was the Blood of the Lamb that was shed for us, not our blood, if it were our blood we could not be redeemed; for there is nowhere in Scripture that remotely suggests, nor supports your theory of “no blood transfusions” whatsoever. I have already shown you above in context that those passages unequivocally have nothing to do with blood transfusions.
You also state that our bodies are the temple of the Lord (which in fact they are – 1 Cor. 3:17), but that has nothing to do with getting a blood transfusion if it is to save ones physical life. If you are implying that it does, then sir, you are engaging in what is know as eisegesis (adding to the Scriptures what is not there), which is forbidden by God (Rev. 22:18-19).
Generally speaking, if one harbors a prejudice toward certain things written in Scripture; that is understandable, however, to take Scripture out of context to fit one’s agenda is quite another thing.
I mean this with the uttmost respect.
to ray,
hi, good illustration the ’small parts’ one.
However I sadly register that you too, ray, have sucked & internalized the evil fable that christianity = goodness, justice, love, etc.
No, this pope-invented crime-ology (criminal ideology) is everything but good. 21st century fundamentalism (taliban and juoeuvoeah witlesses above all) stem from the judaeo-christian venom vomited by such deviant mullahs (i.e. the jewish old testament writers and the Roman Catholic popes).
Also, remember that fornication IS NOT A SIN. it’s the most beautiful thing to do, perhaps the only thing this life is worth living. Anything else and you’re just a wanker or worse (!) as shown in the ‘Vatican and sex crimes’ documentary by the BBC and in the feature ’sexual child abuse’ of this site.
think-o
Please think on this:
WT says no to blood, but yes to “small parts”, then. . . what are we talking about?
Which are small parts of fornication, and which of honesty?
This are men (Brooklyn) commandments only, they are driving nice people life, teaching haevy rules, maving more and more money.
A real christian is more simple and has big love.
Plese think, Ray
You are the sick one!
to Zero,
dear Zero, at this point I believe that
a) either you are a total moron
or
b) that you are not a witless of jueovhaueh trying to pass as such in order to make the average witless look so stupid as to confirm the hopeless brainlessness state of these sectarians.
If you are really a witless prior to running your mouth and ashaming yourself DO read the articles by the filthy governing-blood-body that Mr Vleugel as kindly made available on this site, I mean any, but if you start with the one about the blood issue that’s ok.
The Faithless and Disgraceful Slavemaster keeps murdering people thru the blood doctrine because they cannot do otherwise. At the beginning such a crazy, radical and fundamentalist doctrine served the purpose -among other doctrines- of attracting the frustrated and loser and angry scum of the population, just like christ the jesus did at the beginning.
Now that the Towers of All Terrors would like to be a little more mainstream they have eased off the blood doctrine to give more freedom of conscience (BS…). In fact if you read between the lines the last enlightment by the faithless and Disgraceful Slavemaster is saying: “do take all the blood you want just don’t let anyone know it”.
But mainly the ulama making up Faithless and Disgraceful Slavemaster keep the blood doctrine still official because of the high/orgasm they get every time they know that an asshole has died or when babies die for their criminal, mindless parents.
This way your mullahs also get “martyrs” which is always good for blood/murder cults like the ones inspired by the jewish and christian tradition.
Zero, your understanding is still zero also because you do not understand that the bible was written not only by the jewish mullahs but also by the catholic hierarchy (new testament).
In other words you live and die for the great harlot BS written by what you witlesses define as the ultimate sanguinary whore , namely the catholic church whose clever writers/pranksters vomited the biblical filth whenever they got time in between massacres.
to Zero,
you totally made my point. Typically you try to pass yourself as the “good” christian bragging higher moral and saying that I’m bitter, malicious and whatever. I’m not but if you think so no problema.
The point is that when people slam you using their own words they are bitter, evil, etc.
When you use bible verses to sweet-talk me and others into believing that we are children of the devil, dogs that’s ok.
No wonder you belong to that nazi-terrorist cult known as the Tower of All Terrors supposedly guided by the heathn god jueoeahvaueh or yhwh.
I also think that people like you dying and drooling to see billions of human beings butchered at Armageddon by your sex-freak cuckolded mis-god only because they refuse to be as non-thinking as you are so that you can inherit your sickdom is really murderous thinking.
But as you’ll see, staying with the Towers of All Terrors rather than Armageddon you’ll only get Anal-geddon…I mean, unless you’re one of the Brooklyn bosses or somebody that cashes in on the faith. But if you’re just rank-and-file…good luck.
And by the way, the bible is worthless in terms of making people better as I saw in my my years among the juoevauah witlesses. It has only served the ends of those who have perpetrated the sum total of the evil throughout history.
hi